Hello,

This is probably one of those questions that not many people will have insight to answer - as it is an odd. But basically, in a scenario where a) the person opted to downgrade to an MPhil, or b) was downgraded to Mphil on the basis of the viva, what would this mean for their references? I am wondering if in the b scenario at least they could expect to get good references for future academic jobs (albeit not ones requiring a PhD). Possibly even in the a scenario?

Any informed responses appreciated!

Thanks

Hi Tudor_Queen,
I am an experienced supervisor and often write references for students. This is my personal view and I don’t know how widely this is shared but I think it would be shared with most of my colleagues. However, personally I wouldn’t really mind if you downgraded or the viva resulted in an MPhil i would still provide a reference. Ultimately I think the relationship you have with your supervisor would impact on the reference they would Be willing to write. I have a good relationship with all my students so if this happened I would support them anyway I could. Incidentally I am not sure why your asking or how far into the PhD you are but to be forced to downgrade is rare in the social sciences, most people who can write 80,000 words manage to create something worth of a PhD it just needs refinement or repackaging. As a result I have seen a forced downgrade once in four years (from a cohort of +200 PhD students in our department) and this was in an interim review of the work not at the viva. At the viva I would always avoid this. I think you would be offered the possibility of revise and resubmit. Incidentally in the case of that student, the supervisor moved institutions a few months after and invited them to apply with the MPhil for a PhD at that university to carry on the research.
I hope this helps you.
Tester

I think you are perhaps in the despair phase of the PhD and are seeing the worst case scenario as probable rather than the more realistic improbable. Could you take a few days off to regroup?
I agree with Tester - I think you get a very skewed view of PhD outcomes from this forum, as the vast majority who get the 3-6 month corrections outcome don't post, but the less usual awful outcomes are over-represented as understandably those are the people looking for advice. An MPhil outcome post viva is fairly unusual. I only know of one myself - someone who ignored his supervisors and examiners' feedback and didn't make the corrections required. The other MPhils I know about all downgraded after annual reviews - often because of personal circumstances or data collection not working out at all.
I would also write as supportive a reference as I could, but I probably would encourage a capable individual to look outside academia. The reason is that academic jobs not requiring a PhD are often a step down in terms of independence from doing a PhD and/or offer no possibility of career progression. And those jobs are very vulnerable in times of cuts, which atm, with the type of Brexit deal the UK seems to be heading for i.e. not great for science, look ever more likely.

TQ, are you talking about yourself???
Surely not?

Hi,Tudor_Queen,

I agree with Tester that it all depends on the relationship with the supervisor. I know of students who chose to downgrade to MPhil due to circumstances with the approval of the supervisor and got good references for future jobs. I also heard of students who had unwanted downgrade to MPhil and the relationship with the supervisor was so awful that there was no way to get a good reference. While the supervisor is unable to give bad written reference legally, there is no regulation on giving mediocre reference by email or horrible phone reference. In the unwanted downgrade case, I would advise the student to get someone else eg. postdoc or lab manager to be the reference rather than the supervisor.

I also agree with bewildered that if the person chooses MPhil over PhD, it would be best to look for a job outside academia. A Phd is necessary for career progression in academia but not essential in the industry (but could be an advantage over other candidates in industry).

Is all well, Tudor_Queen?

Hi everyone,

Thank you all very much for your replies. I've started entertaining the idea of submitting my thesis for an MPhil. The reason... Well, I chose to do a PhD for one reason: for the intellectual challenge/ownership/personal growth/development of skills, thinking, writing, knowledge etc.

But things went wrong in supervision and project very early in the journey - and I was not empowered at that stage to leave and start a new PhD elsewhere. So I just plodded on. As a result, I am nearing the end of my PhD and have had no or little intellectual challenge/stimulation, am writing up for the sake of it, and barely even read papers anymore even. It is just crap. And if all goes to plan I will have a doctorate in a few months that means absolutely nothing to me.

Apparently, when doing a PhD you have a level of freedom in your research that you basically won't get at any other point in the academic career. I haven't had this... and if I just go on to do my viva and get a job, postdoc etc, I'll never get that chance again.

On the other hand, if I downgrade myself to MPhil, I will be free to find an RA job, get my foot in the door somewhere, get to know people I can work with, and apply for and do another PhD. I know it sounds crazy, but if you consider my motivation for doing a PhD then it actually makes perfect sense that I would want to do this.

Since my original post, I realised I have two trusted academics who I’ve recently worked with who would write me references. So my updated questions are: Is that all that matters for securing RA roles and possible future PhD funding? Or will I simply not be considered for things because I have an MPhil (signaling that I didn't complete a previous PhD)?

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this.

Tudor

Hi Tudor_Quuen. I am sorry that things did not go as expected during your PhD. I will try to answer your questions.
Good references are very helpful in securing RA roles. But be aware that some RA roles are not that often like Postdoc. Having not completed a PhD is not a good sign for considering you for a new PhD but I would say your chances are still not bad especially if you publish a couple of papers.
I know this is not your question but I cannot help not saying it. If you got RA role, you will also not chance of freedom in research. THere is a high chance that you regret submitting MPhil. You are still at the beginning of an academic career and your PhD is not expected to be perfect. If you see other colleagues or Postdocs who have lower quality PhDs than you would have had, you will feel sorry for yourself.
So please think again. I am afraid this step can make you quit academic career at one point.

Thank you Eng. I am still very much unsure and trying to come to a decision. Just to clarify: an RA post not requiring a PhD would be my next step. From there, after a year or two or whatever time, I would want go on to find a way to get PhD funding. That is where I would expect to have intellectual freedom - not in the stepping stone RA role.

Does this affect your response in any way?

Hi. I would tell you shortly my experience. I had MSc in UK and went for RA role also in UK. It was not possible to do a PhD during my RA role because then I had to pay the difference between Home/EU international fees (about 9000 Pounds a year). So I continued my RA role for about 2 year. I have visited a conference and when I met other PhD students there, I felt sad because I was neither a PhD or a Postdoc. Actually to work in academia, you should have a PhD otherwise you would be different (like Wolwitz in Big bang theory :) )
Anyway, I went for an RA role in Germany and started a PhD at the same time. It is quite common here and many PhD students are paid well as RAs. When I went to a conference this time, I felt "equal" to PhD students from other universities. It was nice not to feel less. Unfortunately, things did not go well in my PhD and after 5 years my contract was not extended and I left to industry without a PhD but this is another story.
What I am afraid of, you feel bad and regret giving away a good chance for the romantic hope to have intellectual freedom after several years. Also your urge for a PhD may cause you to choose a subject which is not your favourite. You may end up with a bad supervisor. A lot of possibilities. I like taking risks but only if the odds are high for a good outcome. But taking this risk, I really do not recommend.

This really does make me think. I guess it is this conflict: a PhD as a means to an end vs a PhD as an intellectual experience. I had been seeing it as a means to an end - you know - just get it done and move on asap. But then I began to think about what I had missed. And would I ever get the opportunity to have that again. Thanks for your comment - it really is making me think. The last thing I want is to make a decision I regret.

Oops - I have just seen your latest reply. Am now going to read that. :-)

OK - have read it. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. What you have said is really food for thought. You are right - there is an element of romanticism here - and possibly the frustration and disappointment I feel about how things have been is making me feel like doing something drastic. I think the more people I talk to, and who give me their honest take like that, the better. Hopefully I'll be able to make an informed decision about things and not end up feeling regret at either: a) completing the PhD in spite of everything or b) downgrading to MPhil in the hope of something better.

One thing that might be a different about me (just adding this in case it gives a better picture) is that I don't tend to be bothered by things that are issues to other people, such as fitting in or having acquired a status. My main drive is and always has been what's inside of me - what I'm learning and getting from a situation. Just putting that out there in case it makes the picture / advice people would give any different.

i think it would be a mistake not to finish the PhD. As I think the majority of people have things go wrong during their PhD; bad supervision, resesearch doesnt go way wanted, or supervisor leaves, anything really. So i think alot of poeple end up just trying to get it finished. so to hope next time you will get your dream PhD experience is probably unrealistic. Who knows after your PhD you could get a postdoc that fits exactly with what you want to do, or get funding for your dream project. so the PhD is not the only time you potentially have intellectual freedom. A lecturer told me once a phd just a stage, with alot of unneccessary steps, to get through so you can do research what you really want in the future.

Don't do this Tudor. It's a bad idea all round. Plus, your supervisors/head of department probably won't let you anyway, you've done the work for a PhD and they expect you to get one.

I also think your idea of academic freedom being lost after a PhD is wrong. If anything, you have more. You will get this academic freedom to an extend in a postdoc and if you get an academic job. Right now, I can choose to do what ever research I want to do (whether I could get funding for that is another matter...)

I agree with what the others have said about the danger of romanticising the PhD experience and also think you should complete. I think my other concern if I were you would be the likelihood of getting funding a second time. I suspect quite a few academics would be concerned not just whether you'd complete the second one given the MPhil but also about whether it's fair to choose you ahead of someone who has not yet had any funding. I know people who've got a second funded PhD but that was when they had had very significant personal extenuating circumstances that had prevented them completing the first like serious illness. I don't know whether it's viewed differently in better funded subject areas than my own but suspect it might be worth finding out whether your idea is viable.