======= Date Modified 20 57 2009 22:57:32 =======
Well I've made up my mind and I'm definitely going on to do a PhD hopefully starting in October 2010. I've spoken to my potential supervisor and have to write a draft proposal of the area I'm interested in on the standard application form.

There are two routes though and I quite like the look of the new-route PhD over the traditional PhD. I was just wondering if anyone had an opinion on either they'd like to share.

The other thing is, how long should a first draft proposal be? I've had a look on the net and they range from 500 words to 15 pages! Well that's a lot of scope however way you look at it.

The area I'm interested is cognitive systems engineering if that helps.

Thanks everyone.

What's this new route and traditional thing? And can alternatives not be combined?

This is the "thingy" http://www.newroutephd.ac.uk/

Basically it's a broader package of skills than you'd get in a traditional PhD. It's also a four year commitment not three (as a traditional PhD can be).

Be interested in your thoughts.

======= Date Modified 20 May 2009 23:55:27 =======
I was directly involved with people working on something like this - something called an EngD. A four year course including masters taught courses. There are ups and downs. Your supervisor probably wont see the point in the extra courses, will see them as a distraction from the real research. It can take its toll as you may find yourself doing research during the day and coursework at night. People might say 'what is this newroute thingy' and so may not think highly of it. And it's 4 years long instead of three (which means it will probably go on for five years!). There are plenty more points like that. Good points are that the extra courses and skills could be highly beneficial to you.. pay should be more than a standard PhD, you'll likely learn stuff PhDs may not have (like I said, I've seen people go through these programs and others..) and so on. At the end of the day, a large part of it still boils down to academic research - make sure that you really want to do that :)

Good luck in whatever you decide :)

my extended proposal was about 80 pages (no kidding) but only because it is intended mostly for you to 'go through the thinking process' of your plans a, b, c, etc. and where you will go if you get such and such results, etc. a research proposal should be as long as you think it will need to be for you to understand your project.

Hi Ergogirly

I started a structured doc beginning of this yr, thinking that it would be nice to have fellow colleagues alongside me and have plenty of help from tutors and structure to follow, but I recently changed to a more traditional PhD, as for the first two yrs I was going to be working on assignments, not necessarily on my subject and would not be able to start my thesis until the end of the two yrs.  I was just so itching to get started on my project and learn all I can about my area that focusing on assignments on various subjects just seemed to be taking me away from research. Now I have an office with all the other PhDers so I have company anyway, I get help and support from staff at the dept if I ask for it, and this site is great for giving advice.  So for me the traditional route is the best, and hopefully I will be able to complete in 3 yrs, previous students from the more structured route were still working on their thesis 5 yrs later, the drop out rate was 1 in 3. Probably more suited to people that havent taken any research and design modules at masters level.  Good luck

Oh and my proposal was 2 pages long, 1.5 spacing.

======= Date Modified 21 May 2009 22:36:47 =======
Sorry eueu but I'm going with Java's two pages for my first draft.  That's some proposal but too much I feel at this stage. Thanks anyway.

I really do want to start my research as soon as I'm able but also feel that extra course work would help as well.  I just want to get on and start doing the things I want to do.

I don't know why the +3 comes up all the time - do many people complete in three years?

Java - is that drop out rate for new-route students? 

It must be very hard to keep motivated if you are continually working on projects which are not in line with your aspirations.

Hi Ergogirly, that is drop out rates at my uni for the structured route - which concerned me, but other uni's may have better retention rates.  I would love to complete in 3 yrs, because I have so many other things to do and I fear my focus and attention span may waiver if I was considering a much longer time, also life can take different directions, so the sooner the better - but I have given myself a personal limit of 4 yrs. Time will tell if I also will be making one of those happy posts 'I'm a Dr now!' or not.  All the best 8-)

Hello Java and so sorry I couldn't respond to your reply earlier.  My ISP thought it could have a bank holiday as well!

That is very positive to hear and especially when we seemed to have a run on threads starting " I'm thinking of quitting", "is it worth it anymore?" etc...etc...

Shall keep my fingers crossed for you and look forward to the day you start THAT thread :-)

On looking around, I have now decided to go for the traditional route so thanks everyone.

Some suggest that you should opt for traditional PhD if you want a career as researcher as the 'new routes' are struggling to be recognised as equal qualifications (for a research career).

Actually that was something that crossed my mind. Thanks Zurpher.