======= Date Modified 18 32 2009 21:32:34 =======
Hi, am new to this site but really glad i found it. Currently am into overtime doing my PhD, and its been a long hard experience. Main thing I've discovered thats hurt my progress is the lack of desire to obtain a PhD in the first place, and the bad connotations attached to it.

Where I come from trades people generally rule. All my peers are in the trades, builders, etc and anyone with a degree is often thought of poorly as someone who doesn't have any practical skills. More often than not you'l hear people tell a story about how someone has all this success even though they didnt do well at school and didnt need a degree etc (even motivational books, think and grow rich etc, have this theme to them). I've had this drummed into me all throughout my PhD and whenever I tell people what im doing, the old 'those who cant do, teach' and other academic run downs come out, normally in very subtle ways that aren't offensive to me at the time but take there toll when it comes to really getting motivated to finish the PhD.

So im hoping this site can provide a better reference group for me, and help me see the value of PhD/study more.

I think people without degrees often have chips on there shoulders that make them run them down so much. Farmer friends of mine scoff at me being at uni so long, and theyre often driving expensive vehcicles, and generally saying, look at me, no degree required here buddy.

Some of my best friends constantly say things like 'you dont need a peice of paper to get a job, people want people who know how to get things done, and you learn everything in the workforce anyway'. Im out numbered and don't try to back up the need for a degee etc..

I have an older friend whos director of an engineering company who often tells stories about how the best engineers he's employed dont have degrees (he never got a degree himself and it seems a lot like he's always running down university's and flying the 'you dont need a degree' flag).

I think degrees and to a greater extent post-grad work, while true it doesn't teach that many practical skills and these will need to be learnt in the workforce, it does tell an employer what you are capable of.

Moral of the story is, PhD's are hard things to complete when you want them bad, when you lack desire for them at all theyre near impossible.

Has anyone had similar experiences?

Thanks

hi there; where I come from is similar to yours. For example, my mom's neighbor is a self-made millionaire who failed his GCSEs; he was always saying the same things--and I personally know some people who did so well in school--but they earn very little today.

I found this website 2 years ago; if you do a search on posts you'd probably find my post about "phd for old students". I was feeling insecure and I got very useful advice from people here. I am always thankful for that. Eventually I did get my scholarship and here I am :-)

The first supervisor I (ever) had told me, "do your masters (firstly) because you want to do your masters and not because of what you want to do WITH your masters". He was right, and I was lucky to have a supervisor like that. He never told me I was old, useless and stupid or that I could never learn anything.

If you've had this "running down phds" drummed into you--and you decide to do your phd anyway, I guess you have to learn to put these feelings aside and cope with them--I am also coping with my own insecurities--(on qualification etc., and yes sometimes I still feel uncomfortable about my age)--

so..I think.. we do our phds because we want to--and whether they are hard things to complete when we want them bad, really depends on us--its how we see it and how we take it--and yes you are right, the lack of desire makes them nearly impossible.

cheers, satchi

Thanks for the reply, will look your thread up.

I started my PhD as more of a default thing, had a supervisor want me to do a project, I signed the papers and was doing it without much thought given other than it paid about what I would of started on as an graduate engineer, so may as well give it crack. I also like the idea of becomming an expert in my field, and a PhD was congruent with that also.

I think the people who want to generalise and say things like 'you'd be better off not going to uni' need to look at the stat's, sure one in many many people who don't have a degree become great successes (and you'l hear that story over and over), but i'd be pretty sure the number of people who have become very wealthy WITH a degree, as a percentage is greater. I have just read somewhere PhD's in engineering earn on average 18k more than engineers with just graduate degree. I might be sounding a bit on the defensive, but i hear so much everyday about how ya dont need a degree that I'm starting to get a bit fed up.

Its like you'l hear the story about the unseeded tennis player who won a major tournmament a lot more than you would if the top seed had won. That doesn't mean you should strive to become a lowly ranked tennis player to ensure you'l win a major tourmament.

======= Date Modified 19 Mar 2009 09:19:00 =======
============= Edited by a Moderator =============
The problem with the arguments made by the "University of Life" types is that they are entirely based on anecdotal evidence. So they always cite the one or two people that made a success of their life without degrees. However, the actual statistics show that degree earners on average earn more than non-degree earners (used to be about £400,000 more over a lifetime but now about £150,000). Also note that in recessions and downturns it is the graduates who are more likely to stay afloat than the skilled/semi skilled groups.

Also society in the west has moved along to the point that you now need a degree to do jobs that previously didn't require a degree just to get into an entry level job. No doubt this leads to some of the resentment that non-degree holders have over degree holders.

However, there is the issue about the extra employability a PhD will give you. A lot of people think along the lines of "one degree good, two degrees better" but its not usually the case as outside academia employers often have misconceptions about PhDers (and may even be intimidated by them). Thats why the UK Gradschools were set up to help offset some of this, but I still think that a vocational postgraduate course is probably a better bet if you are just measuring eventual salary.

What doing a PhD gives you is the unrivalled opportunity to get paid for doing something you love in obsessive detail. Obviously this is going to make some people a bit annoyed especially if they can't see the practical application of it and they have to do the 9 to 5 grind. Thats their problem, not yours.

Personally I see it from a different perspective. People running things down aren't doing it out of logic, they're doing it because they want to tell themselves it for some reason to make themselves feel better for whatever reason. I'm vegetarian, and I often get 'asked' by people why I am, so they can then justify to me why they eat meat. They don't listen to the answer, they are just waiting to tell me why I am wrong, which is actually re-affirming in their own mind why they are right. So, looking at it logically, or trying to fight back with statistics isn't going to work. It's not coming from a logical place. I don't think people sit down, look at employment etc stats, and decide an 'academic' route isn't for them. They have different, more emotional reasons than that. So personally, I just don't engage in conversation like that. I just let people tell me what they need to tell me, nod vaguely, and then move on. It doesn't fuel what they are saying, they get to make themselves feel better, doesn't affect me. If it were an ongoing relationship, I might then slip things into the conversation every once in a while that challenge their preconceptions, but not in an overt, confrontational way. Chip away, give people the opportunity to see things differently for themselves.

I work on the basis of "each to their own". I don't enjoy manual labour (day-in and day-out), am bored by retail, am useless at IT and can't stomach industrial work (ie: assembling lines) but gifted with an interest in all things around me. I do what I do, they do what they do. Years of academia have given me a dry, somewhat caustic wit. Denigrate me at your peril 8-)

As I see it these 'friends' of yours have two different arguments here. On the one hand we have the argument that you don't need a degree to get a job. I would argue that in this day and age that is simply not true, not that it's necessarily a good thing. Even vocational careers now require degrees in a way that didn't used to be the case, and there are so many graduates around that the degree itself isn't enough - what matters is the other things you've done AS WELL. However, what is obviously harder to justify to people with no background experience of any level of academia is why you are doing a PhD. I come from a family where one parent has a degree but it was an MBA taken after an army career, and the other only took vocational qualifications having grown up in New Zealand where, at the time, hardly anyone went to university. However, my sister and I were always going to go university and that was totally acceptable. My parents then supported my MA and are about to support my sister's. This is in part because my father, who employs a lot of new graduates, understands that although it's not all about your degree, an MA at least shows an element of dedication and is better than endless gapping before you fall into a career, as can be the case for many new graduates at the moment. Unfortunately, in spite of their huge support of my education so far there is no way my parents are really ever going to understand why I'm doing a PhD but when they see how passionate I am they question it less. Obviously that's not so easy for you to show people, but I think that you shouldn't have to justify what you're doing. At the end of the day research is essential in all areas (even in mine which, let's face it, isn't ever going to change society or bring the world any great benefit) because the provision of an intellectual background will drive forward human progress, and that has to be positive. If everyone in the world was a do-er and there were no thinkers, I don't think we'd have got to where we are now.

======= Date Modified 19 Mar 2009 12:54:14 =======
That sounds very frustrating. It must be difficult to motivate yourself with a background noise of comments like that. Here are some thoughts on the topic, which might provide you with some replies to your detractors:
- no, you don't *need* to do a PhD to be a success. There are very few professions one *needs* to do in order to live a good quality of life, but that doesn't mean people can't aspire to them.
- do your friends consider the advanced level of education of their GP/pharmacist/nurse/flash car engine designer/i-Phone creator/combine harvester engineer to have been a waste of time?
- as others have said, the general evidence is that on average level of education corresponds with income
- the world has changed. You used to be able to be a senior academic without a PhD or a teacher without a degree. Things have moved on.
- the standard methods/materials employed by some people with 'real world' jobs is, at least in some cases, highly likely to be derived from knowledge developed by people undertaking research.
- if everyone went into their trade, the market would be saturated. What if you turned out to be better/more successful at their job than them?
- what the hell does it matter what you earn if you enjoy what you do?

Overall I think there are a huge range of things that are important jobs (from plumbing to medicine, maintenance to engineering). And they require people with different life experiences and qualifications. There is no 'one size fits all' recipe for this and it would be nice if your peers accepted that your approach is as valid as theirs.

It is funny because I was having a conversation with a Professor yesterday related to this thread. He was saying that he feels that in the UK there is a general feeling that more educated people should be 'apologetic' for their education. We herald people that have earned a million selling sandwiches, whereas someone who has done equally well in an alternative competitive environment - i.e. educational qualifications, is seen as an unknown entity. In reality, perhaps both types of people should be applauded? We certainly have a crude view of education. In most other countries, including the US, Professor's, lecturers, and educated people in general are considered as important within society. Perhaps, here in the UK, we put a lot of emphasis on people becoming footballers, pop-stars, glamour girls, reality tv stars etc etc....after all, when was the last time you saw a TV show called e.g. 'Who wants to be a PhD student', or 'Big Professor' ... At the end of the day...you love research, it wont make you rich, but it will make you comfortable. When you sit back at retirement age, hopefully you will have an enormous amount of self-respect for what you achieved in your career - and then, what does it matter what anyone else thinks???

you do not have to justify your life choices to anyone! as has already been mentioned, what a boring and uninventive world we would have if everyone were to follow the exact same path. are you scrounging off the state, living off benefits? no. you are making a positive, well-intentioned contribution to society. where would we be without us lowly academics toiling away in the background?! even if your research won't be life-changing or ground-breaking, the advancement of human knowledge will always be a worthy cause and i for one will never feel the need to apologise for the choices i have made in terms of my life and career. what if your life's passion was to be a charity worker and you were perfectly happy earning a tiny amount of money? does this mean your life and career would not be worthwhile because you didn't drive a flash car and live in a huge house? money isn't everything. and if you get a well-paid job at then end of it, will it mean less than if you had little/no education? people should be grateful that everyone is different, and it doesn't make your career any less worthwhile than anyone else's. tell them to stick it!

ok, i'll get down off my soapbox now, rant over :)

What excellent points you all make, especially the above. Research is needed because if everybody continued to hold "common-sense" views of the world without investigating whether they were true or not, we would still believe the earth was flat.

We can only implement useful change in aspects of the world if we know what is going on in the first place.

One of the managers at my (non-academic) job seems to have a real chip on his shoulder about my studies. I just smirk when he makes his feeble comments. Others that I work with accept that it's horses for courses and that we all have different types of talents.


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