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Well I am close to submitting my PhD and to be honest it has been a horrible experience that I wish I never went through. Mostly because of my supervisor I might add, who was and still is well just a terrible supervisor. Anyway I have been trying to look for work for the last few months and I have to say that I have found that my PhD is more of a hindrance than a help for the majority of the jobs I have applied for. My PhD is in experimental physics I might add. Anyway every graduate level job I apply for I get a reply that I am over qualified, and every job that I apply for requiring experience gives me a reply that I have not got enough experience. There is no shortage of postdocs looking for jobs, in fact I would say the job market is flooded with postdocs with experience, which makes it a lot harder for new PhD graduates. Things are so bad that I cannot even get a part time or temporary job as no one will touch me because of my qualifications. I have now deleted my PhD from my CV for job applications which require graduate or lower qualifications, since I believe its the only way I have any sort of chance. I have an interview soon for a secondary school teacher training course, as this seems to me the best option, even still the competition from first degree graduates, with more experience in secondary school teaching, means this is going to be hard to get accepted onto this course.
All in all the PhD was a complete waste of time for me, and I have a feeling that I have wasted the last 9 years studying physics and I will end up being a postman or something like that.

Sorry to read about your situation Vilee. Hope it improves!

I was wondering what the job market is like for PhD graduates. Is there a fav website or anything where most people look? Are you looking for jobs in a certain area or are you willing to move about giving you more chance to get a job?

Good luck!

I totally get what you mean Vilee as I had a similar experience too though I still enjoyed the research itself and that is what kept me going despite all the other problems I had!!!!  Yeah I'm finding the same problems about postdocs too!  The market is flooded with experienced postdocs so people who have just finished don't really stand a chance assuming there are posts to apply for which is the other problem in my field! I've hardly seen any recently so have decided to try my luck at temporary teaching posts which have the same problem!  Well probably worse as I've less teaching experience than most for reasons I won't go into so there is not much hope there!  It's really is tough for people who have just finished.  I won't go into it too much as I'll just end up repeating myself!

I haven't tried many posts outside academia as that is where I really want to be though I need to start coming up with a Plan B as I don't know how long I can carry on like this!  The problem I find with jobs outside academia is that they don't really stimulate me.  I was at an interview for one where I could use my skills in a limited way but it was just to follow a protocol and there was no research involved unless I did it in my own time despite masses of data being collected!  Part of me is just stubborn as I think that I went through a lot to get the PhD so I want to use it and I am determined to even if it kills me trying! Mind you I used to think that about getting one and look where it has gone me!  I just need to know all the grief was worth it and would like to think it wasn't a waste of time!  Only time will tell! How long can I play this game for?  Is it just to reassure myself that I'm not that stupid really and that I can get a job which uses my skills and knowledge? Am I trying to prove to myself it was worth it and also I'd love to see the look on my supervisor's face when I tell them I've an academic job so there! There seems to be a lot riding on it!!!!

You shouldn't have to hide your PhD for a teaching course especially at secondary level as they are trying to attract high quality science graduates such as yourself!  I think the program is called Teachfirst which is specially designed to get people to teach science as you know they are short of science teachers. I have a friend who has just got a place on a training course for secondary schools.  The PhD is a good selling point especially for physics so don't sell yourself short! You're worth it! 

But I know what you mean it's demoralising and it feels like we are in limbo not knowing which way to turn and hoping for a job!  I'm really hoping things pick up soon! Anyway good luck! (up)

Hey! To be honest, I have always believed that I will benefit from my PhD, but now I'm close to the end I'm less sure of myself. Job opportunities are scarce, even though I'm in an area that is of practical relevance and am prepared to move pretty much anywhere across the UK (dementia stuff!). I suppose I've always believed what my supervisors have told me (you'll be fine, you'll be the exception that makes it through and succeeds) and now I'm so near the end I am beginning to question that. I suppose I won't really know until I've finished my PhD and I'm competing for jobs, but I know from what I've learnt already that it isn't an easy market out there. It's easy to believe that you'll be the one who will make it, but I guess until you're out there competing for jobs you will never know for sure. I've got my fingers crossed that maybe I'll be the exception who makes it past the PhD and gets a post-doc or fellowship or whatever, but I am beginning to realise just how tough things are. Unfortunately having 3 degrees won't necessarily get you a job any more, no matter how relevant your topic is. I hope in 6 months or a year's time I'll be able to report some sort of success story, but right now nothing is at all certain. I don't regret my PhD at the moment, but if years pass and I don't make progress in the research world I'll be pretty devastated. Anyway, for now I've had a few vodkas and probably best leave it at that! Tomorrow I'll be back onto fellowship and viva preparation! Best, KB

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Hey Vilee,

Just wanted to say I can totally emphasize with your situation. I'm a post viva PhD student currently working through my thesis corrections- hoping to finish my thesis revisions in a few months time.....perhaps slightly unrealistic, but the sooner the better!

I'm also in the same boat- ie hit with the 'over qualified' stick or receiving comments such as 'given your PhD, this post will add little to your research career and I recommend you look for post doc positions', or 'this position is for a junior psychology graduate only', or 'given your expertise, qualifications and experience, I recommend you apply for our senior research posts advertised shortly'........Hard to take, especially as I really need a job!! I was rejected from my employment agency that I used to work for because my qualifications and work experiences are 'too specialised'- whatever that means!

I'm actually moving away from research into something more applied- not a career change as such as I'm still sticking within the same sort of area, . I want to start a professional doctorate in Health Psychology soon, so I'm looking at relevant part time research positions (which I'm struggling to find!) and also four different voluntary positions to build up some one to one experience working with different client groups (external to research projects). I'll probably still apply for clinical psychology training at some point, but given the course seems to have the most insanely competitive admissions component, I don't fancy my chances! Changes within the NHS and reductions in research budgets will probably make my decision for me though :(

I'm also considering completely omitting my four postgraduate courses/degrees for non graduate jobs (support worker, carers etc), but it feels really painful to start deleting all my postgrad qualifications from my CV!

I'll be devastated if I eventually end up working in something completely unrelated or return to admin temping prior to graduating from my undergraduate degree. I wonder if I'll end up as a check out girl in Tescos like my parents predicted when I was just starting secondary school :-(

But, I don't regret my PhD at all. OK, I'm a dress size larger with a few more grey hairs, but I'm far more confident (despite how I may appear online) and learnt loads about myself and developed expertise in my thesis subject. oooooo Keenbean- we share some similar research interests ;-)

Best of luck Vilee

Hey Pineapple, don't be too overwhelmed by the DClin requirements- 3 people on my corridor at work got onto the DClin last year at the end of their clinical PhDs. Two of them also had relevant voluntary work but not masses of it. If your PhD is clinical then that will really help. Another of my pals got an interview and didn't get a place, but was told afterwards that she should go do a relevant PhD then re-apply for the DClin. And one of the MSc students I supervised last year got on straight after her MSc, and she was only the 22 so she can't have had that much experience! It is tough, but quite a few people I know are getting on straight after their PhD if they've been working with a clinical population. Have you ever applied before?

Best, KB

Vilee,

I know exactly how you feel and yes, to get into a real world job, I hid my PhD. My situation was compounded by workplace problems during a post-doc at a second Uni. (not my PhD Uni.).

However, in saying that if I had my time over again, I would still do the PhD. It is something I wanted and had to do. It's difficult to explain, however, I had to 'complete the process' and take on a project that would really challenge me. The PhD was just the ticket.

I agree with you hiding your PhD (that seems to be rule of thumb in a world that actually seems to denegrate PhDs), however, I also believe a few years down the road you'll look back and probably be glad you did it. In my case it's a feeling of no regrets. If I hadn't done it, I'd have been wondering 'what if'.

That said everybody is different.

Either way, chin up as it's nearly over. ;-)

I THINK YOUR IMMEDIATE CONCERN ABOUT FINDING A JOB IS SOMEWHAT PREMATURE - AND IT DOES NOT HELP YOU TO EASE THE ANXIETY ONE NATURALLY HAS BEFORE SUBMITTING THE THESIS. THOUGH MINE IS IN A DIFFERENT SUBJECT, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT GETTING THE PhD IS REALLY WHAT MATTERS NOW. SO, I WOULD SUGGEST YOU CLEAN YOUR MIND FROM ALL NEGATIVE THOUGHTS AND TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES (DIFFICULTIES WITH SUPERVISOR, ETC.) AND FOCUS ON WHAT IS AHEAD OF YOU. STILL, IF THIS IS NOT ENOUGH TO HEAL THE PAIN, YES, THE ASSUMPTION HOLDS VALID THAT FINDING A JOB - EVEN ONE BASED ON CONTRACT - WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT. I FINISHED MY PhD FROM A PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITY OF ENGLAND 4 YEARS AGO, AND I MANAGED TO WORK ONLY 20 MONTHS SO FAR. PRESENTLY, I DON'T HAVE A JOB, AND I'M WORKING ON APPLICATIONS FOR RESEARCH GRANTS. THIS IS HOW IT WILL BE, UNLESS YOU'RE EXTREMELY LUCKY. IN A SENSE, IT IS GOOD TO KNOW THAT YOUR PROFESSIONAL CHANCES ARE SEVERELY LIMITED; NOW YOU CAN FOCUS ON FINISHING YOUR THESIS, FREE OF ANY FUTURE ANXIETIES AND EXPECTATIONS.

The situation for PhDs is beyond a joke in most subjects. Even the official line from the universities and governments is that they expect the vast majority of PhD graduates to leave academia and being open about how to effectively think about re-training. At your own expense, naturally.

I also don't think avenues like clinical psychology or graduate medicine are that straightforward. You don't need a PhD but you do need to fit in and be what they are looking for. Everyone knows success stories but to be honest If you have already tried a few times unsuccessfully face it, its probably not going to happen, and I know too many people with PhDs and MScs who keep trying to knock at those doors year after year in the vain hope of getting onto one of those blasted courses. They have just traded one pipe dream for another.

I am one of many that had to leave and am doing a job that is graduate, but really not professional that it needs even an undergrad degree. When I realised what Vilee has so well described I started blaming academics above me. However, I read an article in the Times Higher education supplement which showed how badly PhDers are able to judge their chances. 65% of respondants thought they would be a career academic when there was only a 12% chance of gettting such a post (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=415813).

Lets be honest. We built these traps for ourselves, telling ourselves we are going to be the "one" that makes it, or if we just kept on working hard enough we could win that grant and get a stable job. We do it so we can show those doubters, or those that said we couldn't do it. We are like those X factor contestants, who was convinced that they could be a pop star and that Simon would be sorry when we get knocked out.

We also get into the mindset that we have spent so many years in trying to do academe and if we leave to do something else it was all totally wasted and have come too far to go back. But thats like a gamber in Las Vegas staying on at the table losing more. Its all very well hoping if he just gets onto a winning streak he gets it all back and more, but really the sensible thing is to cut their losses and leave the casino.

In hindsight, I found some of the blogs about leaving academia quite helpful in allowing me to think about what I wanted to do next. What I found really annoying was everone who said they were sure things would be alright and I would find a lectureship soon just keep trying and not to give up. Trying to be helpful but really I needed a wake up call.

Whooaa. Reading this back I realise how much anger there still is. I don't know what I am trying to say Vilee, but just that you aren't the first in feeling that way.

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Hi meologies, it would be quicker to tell you the websites I have not registered with. Basically a lot such as total jobs, grb, cv library etc etc

I have to say not one of them has lead to anything not even an interview. And a lot of the time I apply and never hear anything again, which I find really annoying ! And I should say that from these job websites only recruitment agencies have contacted me not companies directly. I have had one interview however when I have applied to a company directly, though again unsuccessful as the position was somewhat unrelated to my degrees.

Thanks everyone for your replies so far. I read this article today and it pretty much sums up what I am experiencing

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article14564.html

There's also this:

http://www.economist.com/node/17723223

or this:

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472280a.html

Bluntly put, it does feel there's an anti-PhD feeling out there at the moment and the oversupply due to (my opinion) academics using PhD studentships as a source of funded cheap labour doesn't help matters. I can come up with plenty of negative comments about the PhD process, but right not you're not helping yourself dwelling on it.

However, your main concern is getting submitted and through your viva.  Whilst I sympathise with your views, it is nearly over and going through this 'pointless' frame of mind right now is not helping your cause.  Once you submit, you've a few weeks of serious swatting up your thesis material and also other related material you're expected to know.  If you're not focussed on that, why are you bothering. If you go into viva with this negative frame of mind, you are all the more likely to fail.

Go to your supervisor, tell them you don't see the point and disappear into the sunset.  Then try to explain to an employer what you've got to show for the last 3 to 4 years.  I know there's an anti-PhD bias out there, but after all this time spent on your PhD it's going to be more damaging to come out of the last 3 to 4 years without one.  Then, you really will have wasted your time!!!

Submit, have a couple of days on the drink and away from the PhD work, get these feelings out of your system then knuckle down to prepare for the viva.  Once you've got that out of the way, then is the time to having an inquest about it.



Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I can empathize with your situation Vilee, and the others here too. I guess it's one of the things we didn't see coming when we started our phds. We have to move forward in any case. Nothing to add, really, just want to say that I understand you.

Probably a lot of people doing PhDs (though not all) have never worked in a job outside academia (aside from something to pay the bills). For those where this is the case I would suggest that perhaps people are thinking that when they turn up at work they should instantly assume a position of high importance/pay/everything else. Unfortunately this will very very rarely be the case. Whilst I am not suggesting anyone take up a graduate position (there's no way you should even consider it) I would say that people need to realise that in industry you need to prove yourself before you get the perks. I realise that doing 3-4 years+ of a PhD feels a lot like you have proved yourself, but PhD work is very different to non-academia, plus non-academics often don't understand what it takes to get a PhD. This may seem unfair, but it is a fact. Hence, don't expect the job you apply for to be all singing and all dancing. What you SHOULD expect (and can ask at interview time) is that there will be opportunities for progression. This is a big thing, especially in smaller companies. It is not unknown for people to go from new employee to being pretty high up the chain in just a year or two. The important thing is that you need to prove you can contribute within the business environment, not just achieve within the academic environment.

I appreciate the above won't help everyone (especially those told they are over qualified) but hopefully those who may think that a non-academic job they are applying for is not going to be challenging enough can see that it is possible to change what your job is very quickly if you show aptitude, without actually changing your job!

Sorry if I'm telling my granny how to suck eggs so to speak.

Adam

Ph.D. is just a waste of time unless you do it in a big group....pleasing your boss and being bastard with your collegues. In any case for personal experience I want just to say to not do any Ph.D. in chemistry at University of Birmingham (UK). I worked really hard...being available to work over weekends as well and now that I need publications out of MY WORK people cannot be bothered to work.
When you choose make sure that people publish, this is my only advice. Chemistry in Birmingham is a waste of time and money for everyone. I am really upset and surprised that none from that University is checking a simple parameter for each lecture: number of student/number of papers each year!!!! It is impossible that people can complete PhD without any publications!!!!
That University should be banned from the educational system simply because its student are not competitive!!!