This thread started on DanB's latest thread where he said he was missing PhD life...and rather than hijack that thread, I thought I'd start a new one.

Like others here, I've been a student for a long, long time. While I've also had a career along the way, I've always studied, most of it part-time. In the last more than 20 years I've had about 2 years off studying. I tried to do what normal people do - joined community organisations, tried to socialise, took up hobbies etc, but none of it fulfilled me and so I was always drawn back to studying. But I definitely don't want to do any more after this thesis ends, in a few months time hopefully.

I look at my friends' lives - they work, go out a bit, laze around on the w'end, maybe play sport, and all that just seems so unutterably tedious to me, not working towards anything, except maybe chasing a career...But what else is there??? That's the big existential question...I have a fear that I've gotten to a ripe age, and there's nothing else I want to achieve. That's probably really sad, anyone have any thoughts?

Sue, when you have completed your PhD (and I am not doubting for a moment that you will-you will complete and get a Phd that is), I know you've discussed how difficult it might be to obtain academic work (full-time anyway) but wouldn't you still be looking for this ultimately-even if it involved part-time- research fellowships and adjunct work-or adult ed or something?

And while you were working out what you were going to do and what employment options were available-wouldn't you also be still thinking about maybe publishing some papers from your Phd and possibly delivering at conferences or seeking out some consultancy based work-that focused on your particular area?

You won't be a student again-but you will be a bona-fide qualified researcher. That's not too shabby an identity is it? What I guess that I am angling at here is that once you have exited the student stage (even postgrad doctoral students are still students), you would be looking at making a contribution to your field or your area of professional expertise, or even just mentoring and passing on knowledge to less well-informed and jaded professionals in your area. That is finally, all that we can do-make a contribution in the way we are best suited. Studying (as a student) is just the way we get to a higher level or whatever.

So whether running (my pathetic best is around 3 kilometres at present but I am improving) is a past-time or whether expanding your knowledge through further research is a true past-time for you on the weekend, whatever-personal achievement at some point becomes more than personal achievement and ambition-it becomes the wish to make a contribution, even a very very modest one. I guess this is the philosophy that I am struggling with at the moment being at that stage in my life where I do have more time to myself and want to balance achievement, fulfilment and commitment to something more than my own ego-all at once.

Hi Sue,

BTW, I hope that post doesn't read as critical of your thoughts...I think they are really valid and have responded because I seem to be wrestling with similar (though in much different circumstances) myself. So these are things I tell myself...because it can be sobering to wonder (especially if you are a person who sees achievement as really significant-and I know I do myself) what lies beyond it...so that is all I meant below-not meant to be critical just helpful and to let you know what you are doing is worthwhile and being a qualified researcher is a good thing!

Like you Sue I've been a student (just counting the uni years) for most of the last 20 years. First the science degree immediately after school, then starting a PhD, then when I fell ill and started very nasty chemo treatment I started studying history courses part-time with the Open University to take my mind off it. And then that led onto more postgraduate study, but history this time. So it's been a big part of my life for a very long time, and it is quite a shift to move away from it.

But I can also see where Pjlu is coming from. A big thing I've felt since passing my viva, and - particularly - completing the corrections and getting them signed off (oh how good I will feel on graduation day in just under 4 weeks time!) is that I'm a fully validated researcher, or as Pjlu puts it a bona-fide qualified one. That's a huge confidence boost.

On the downside as you know I can't use the PhD for work in any capacity, even part-time tutoring/lecturing which I once hoped I might have been strong enough to do. I can't even work in other forms, even part-time. But I am determined to publish more papers from my thesis, and as much as I can do more research and publish even more. Hey I managed to do the PhD by dragging all the source material to me at home to work on. I'm sure I can carry on doing that 8-)

But I think what I mustn't do is try to define myself too much. I definitely don't just want to be the seriously ill person, but I'm going to try to make the most of all the opportunities I get to do other more fun things, and a lot of those opportunities I'll have to make for myself.

======= Date Modified 26 May 2010 09:59:06 =======
Hey Pjlu and Bilbo, yes, you're both right and very wise. Pjlu, yeh, I would like to stay in my research area, and even if there are no jobs, unis always seem to need poorly paid tutors to exploit, so I could keep my hand in that way, while I see what else comes up. And I do have a career in the civil service to go back to, so that's something at least. And you're right Pjlu, it is a transitional shift in the way we think about ourselves, from being student to researcher. My sup said as much at our last meeting - she told me to 'write like an academic, not a student' ie to write more confidently and like an expert, as I rewrite the thesis again and get it closer to being finished. So I guess I need to start thinking that way too.

And Bilbo, as usual, you're right. There will be articles to publish from my thesis, and I'm glad to hear you're planning on publishing too. That's also a good point about redefining ourselves - we'll all have to do it, and see what comes of it...

And 4 weeks to graduation Bilbo - woo woo! You so deserve every minute of fame that day.

I'm feeling totally rubbish about my PhD identity - yeah it would be fine if I could get a research job, but there are none around in my field. The civil service has just announced the recruitment freeze - great! So there are very few options for me to go into a field related to my PhD. 2 years ago I was all "I'm a PhD student doncha know? and I'm going to be a Dr!" Now, I'm just thinking I made a huge mistake - I've really enjoyed the process, but realistically I am a lot worse off than I would have been if I'd gone into private sector work straight after my masters.

The private sector companies in my field really value experience and selling ability - they don't really want people who tear apart their products with their critical thinking! So I'm now having to look for any local job I can, nothing related to my subject and jobs I could have got without even A levels, and to get a local job I will have to take my MSc and PhD off my CV and replace it with 'went travelling' because most local companies will not want some 'know it all' working for them - they just want someone to do the job :-(

Hi Sneaks

In what way will you be "worse off"? Financialy maybe but there is so much more to life than that. I graduated in 1988 (before some people on here were even born or at least when they were still in nappies) and although I had a place at Cambridge to do an MA I decided that I couldn't ask my parents to fund it (even though at the time they could afford to) so I got a job as graduate trainee accountant. I passed all my exams like a good girl and worked hard, got promoted etc but I felt unfulfilled so in 1996 I went to Birkbeck and did an MA at night school. Did it fulfill me - yes but only while I was doing it. I carried on working as an accountnat in a very specialised area - fairly good salary, car etc etc but in 2004 (with two children under 5) I gave up my job and went back to uni and did an MSc with the intention of going on to do a PhD. I managed to get a lecturing job and so the phD got a bit sidelined (in part because I couldn't find a topic that I thought would be sustainable for 5 years p-t). I started my PhD in December (although was working on it from about June) and with a fair wind will finish before I am 50. I now earn considerably less full time than I did working part-time as an accountant and many of the trappings have gone (new car, expensive holidays, expensive clothes, eating out all the time) but I am so much happier. Would I have been happy had I gone straight to do MA after BA - hard to tell (but I wouldn't have met my husband and wouldn't have my two lovely children so the answer has to be no).


I guess my point is is that it is easy to look at what might have been - I'm guessing you are still fairly young - but it isn't too late to completely change direction. I wouldn't hide the PhD on applications - but stress all the transferrable skills (time management, research, negotiation, presentations, tenacity, commitment etc etc) that you have developed. Be proud of what you have done.

I guess I'm feeling the pinch at the mo. Me and hubby can just about afford our mortgage if we both earn about £26k. So if I can't get a job then we may have to sell up. My friends who went on to consultancy work in my field after the masters are now on about £40k each, and it is annoying that my skills just aren't valued in that world.

I don't live in London, but if I commute, it costs me £6k per year, so have to get a job £6k above what I need in order to be able to justify it - and I can't get that with the PhD, experience would be better. So I look at local jobs, there is no huge industry here, only very small companies, with 2 or 3 people per office and they just want admin people.

I had set my heart on the civil service - where hubby works. But they've just announced the recruitment freeze, so not feeling overly optimistic.

Sneaks, I'm another one who's been out there and is significantly worse off doing this, although I never reached the giddy heights of cars, holidays etc, but its quite right that although obviously the financial aspect is a HUGE one, its not the be all and end all, provided you can get by. For heaven's sake don't take your qualifications off the CV - you've worked so damned hard for them, be proud of them. This is something I was discussing with my boss the other day (I work 10 hours as an RA) and she said the same, really make the most of the transferable skills you've learnt, and think about what you have to do to do this PhD that makes you so incredibly employable! If you focus on that rather than the actual nuts and bolts of the qualification you are head and shoulders above so many other applicants cos you have proved (when we get there) that you have the drive, the determination, the ability to work unsupervised, the skill to be a very valuable asset to any company. As far as the civil service is concerned, that is now Sneaks, who knows what will happen in a year, or two years.... none of us know - the only thing that is certain is that nothing ever stays the same and an opening may well develop just when you need it to so don't lose heart. You aren't wasting your time, you're building a personal portfolio that will knock spots off the vast majority of other workers out there :-)

======= Date Modified 26 May 2010 12:46:15 =======
I understand where you're coming from Sneaks. I also feel as if a lot of ways I'll be worse off because of this PhD. I've lost a considerable amount in foregone income, and it has cost me a career in the civil service - I turned down 2 promotions because of this PhD. It's also cost me friends as I no longer have a social life, and has not been good for my mental health. I did want to change careers to work as an academic, but there hardly any jobs in my field, and the ones that are around don't pay enough to even cover a mortgage, let alone live decently. I also think I left my career change too late and am not now willing to work for peanuts, be on short term contracts or travel anywhere, like I could when I was younger. I believe I'll get the PhD eventually, but all up, objectively, at this point I don't think it's been worth it.

According to my understanding PhD should give us more than an Identity. It should develop our way of thinking. Research should be without Prejudice and Bias. In everyday life people forget such golden rules and tend to diverge towards friends, families, personal gains etc... This developed thinking or training is not for materialistic gains alone but for making us a better human being. Socializing for negative activities is far worse then sitting isolated in a corner of a room and reading/writing an article in my view. If after doing PhD nothing changes especially 'the way we analyze matters around us' then it is of course a waste of time.

I enjoyed reading this thread. I'm in my late 20s and have been in education most of my life. There are only a few more months to go before I finish my PhD and I have to say I really, really look forward to it being over. In addition to being fed up with the work I also don't like the other things that come with being a student - low pay, being treated as 2nd class citizen by banks and landlords, not feeling like a proper, professional person (although one could argue this is probably due to my own self-esteem problem than whether I'm a student). Having said that, I did enjoy the good social life, the opportunity to meet people who share the passion for research, the flexible working hours, and the opportunity to undertake a big project that came out of my own ideas, and the trips abroad that I made for conferences. That said, I think I'm ready to give the 9-5 life a go and have some responsibilities, not to mention a salary.

I have a lot of respect for all of you who gave up your previous careers and (financially) more comfortable life to do the PhD. When I started my PhD I had nothing to lose, and I honestly don't know if I'd be brave and determined enough to give up all trappings to do a PhD. I'm sorry to hear a PhD may not worth a lot for you in terms of future career prospect. I would like to think though, that even if your PhD doesn't directly lead onto a job, what you learnt and developed from you PhD will still prove useful in the future and in other areas of life? E.g. transferable skills like critical thinking skill, project management skill etc...

As for Sue's big existential question - sounds like you might like to look into starting another "life project" after you PhD? Write a book? Start a blog? :)

When you stop learning, life is boring. The proper activity of humans I think is activity, and the more you do in a day, the happier you are.

That is the reason why I wanted to do a PhD, although I dropped out because of the job market.

If you want to read about the struggle to find meaning in work outside of grad school and academe, check out my blog selloutyoursoul.com, its a guide for lost humanities majors looking to still think and learn outside of academe.