So another thread moaning about jobs after the PhD (and difficulties getting them)...

OK, I had three interviews in the past couple of months (great) but I didn't get any of the jobs (not good).

Being genuinely very interested in those jobs (and all the others I have spent hours applying to), I check the departments' websites from time to time to see if anything else comes up.

What I came across recently re. the above three jobs isn't anything new in the academic world but it may serve as useful information for those struggling to find a job; perhaps it is even weirdly comforting...

Anyway, I found out who got the three jobs from the departments' own websites a couple of months or so later. Lo and behold ... all three jobs went to internal candidates close to the people in charge of hiring for those positions; for the two permanent lecturer jobs the successful people were both temporary teaching fellows in the respective departments and for the research associate position the successful person was a conveniently just finished PhD student of the PI of the project.

I'm not saying I had no chance in all three cases, but is this a coincidence? I'm sure those three people who got the jobs were indeed the best candidates in the eyes of the people who chose them. I guess it is almost impossible for anyone else to compete and match their very suitable experience.

Rant over. Anyone else experienced this? It makes me think about all those other jobs I've applied to and whether they were "real" ...

This happens very frequently. I know someone that is fresh out of his PhD, not even viva'd yet, and has just got a lectureship for a year. There are way more qualified candidates, but he is on good terms with the person offering the position. They went through the sham of interviewing other candidates as well, even though this person has already been told he had the position.

Hi Journey, yes I have noticed this, a lot. However I also know through the experiences of family and friends that outsiders can get posts just by applying. So there is hope...

Fresh PhD got a lectureship? sounds suspect. A teaching fellowship I can believe, but a full Lecturship? those things don't come without publications, usually post-doc experience and most importantly, its a search committee who decides. So regardless of who he is close with, they might petition for him, but the hiring committee makes that group decision. (Just had this convo in a seminar with a Prof who sits on these committee, we were trying to debunk these myths)

As to the original poster...do you know if the teaching fellows got their PhD from other universities and came to yours for the Teaching fellow job? I am willing to bet thats the case, as Universities in MOST cases wont hire a PhD candidate they produced for a Lectureship position. Its kind of seen as "academic in-breeding" so forget applying to your uni for anything other than a teaching fellowship or post-doc

No, not a full lectureship, it's a one year temporary teaching post, doing lectures, labs and admin.

It's not a myth. I know the people involved personally.

Oh I was not saying it never happens. I just meant to say that I think it's the exception rather than the rule....or I would like to think so in my own little optimist world :P

Thanks for your replies. So I'm not alone. Maybe these past few experiences are a bit unusual as they ALL turned out to be "sham" interviews.

I don't know the people who got the jobs personally, just read their freshly created profiles on the departmental websites. Fled - for the two lectureships, in the first department the person had done their PhD there and had been working as a teaching fellow the last year and in the second department the person had been a teaching fellow there for at least the past year but I couldn't work out where they had done their PhD. For the research job, the person had literally just finished their PhD and has now landed a brilliant post-doc with a PI who is "coincidentally" their former PhD supervisor.

Last year, I saw a post-doc job come up at another university with a PI who I work closely with on research. I said to the PI that I was going to apply as it looked perfect for me, but they told me not to bother, which I thought was weird since we have done lots of similar work together. So I didn't apply and it turned out this job was indeed for their PhD student who of course got it!

We all know how troublesome the academic job market is, so I guess when senior people have the ability to create new positions, it is perhaps not all too surprising they try to keep on those they know well (and who are of course likely to be very well qualified for the positions anyway). Otherwise, these new / recently finished PhDs will struggle on the job market - despite amazing credentials - and could fall out of academia quite rapidly.

It's just agonising for all those people who reply to these "sham" adverts and even worse for those who make it to the "sham" interviews. Perhaps universities could state in adverts if internal candidates are shortlisted or not ... I would certainly save myself the trouble of playing the "sham" interview game.

Hi Journey, I too had a run of three interviews a few years ago. I was an internal candidate in all three cases but lost out to people who had been working at each place longer than me. In one case the job went to the business partner of the HOD who was also on the interview panel, all the interviewees bar one were internal...

Yes it's horrible to go through this process but I too can see why things work this way. If I were choosing to spend money and time on a new employee, I'd want to know first hand what they were like rather take a risk on an unknown. It's just a pisser for people who are not in the right place at the right time and are chosen to be taken on internally. We have to wade through the applications to find a post that is not already ring-fenced.

It's true, the internal candidate doesn't always win, as Eska's case shows.

I too know of someone who has applied several times to new positions in their department but didn't get any one of them. Then again, they were also told not to apply as the jobs were targeting the American market - in the end the department did get new international people to fill those positions.

I guess you never know if the job is genuinely a new position or intended for an internal person. But there are definite clues ... it's all to do with the details and combination of requirements. Here is an example of an extreme case! Enjoy ...

Hi Journey, not sure if my posting was clear... Internal candidates got all of the positions I was interviewed for. They employed people who had worked for them longer than I had, for many years in a couple of cases, whereas I was quite new. They were open about there being a pecking order.

I think Journey is correct in some ways. If the job requires a certain skill, sometimes the only person that can do it is the person already in the lab, and obviously it is intentionally added to the job requirements. In other cases, the lab wants to bring new skills into the department, so they will specifically seek out new people. Of course, if you have these new skills and know someone in the department, you are more like to get the job that someone with the same skills but no connections.

I've tended to find that with a basic post-doc that the position goes to an internal candidate who has just finished or is "about" to finish their PhD.

Translated, the positions tended to go to people still writing up their PhDs whose funding period has expired. I'm not saying anything as I benefitted from this. :-)

In many a case, the job description just happened to match that of the work of said PhD student.

Ian

Just a tip:

Networks help. A LOT.

You can gauge a potential employer's interest in you . I tend to contact them first by asking a few relevant questions.

If they start asking detailed questions about your background/projects/experience PLUS provide you with a clearer picture of the work, that means a good prospect.

If they don't seem interested, move on.