I have a BA and MA from a very highly ranked Russell Group University. I hold an offer for a PhD at said university but no funding. I am applying for a funded place at a (very good) ex poly. Would it be crazy to take up the funded place? How would it impact on academic career prospects?

Hard to comment without knowing the institutions and subjects but...

- depends on your long term aims and the field you are in. In some fields the academic career prospects are dire regardless of where you've studied.
- that said, a 'good' uni may boost your credentials.
- at research level, sometimes it's the PI/department reputation that matters more than the university, so do your homework on this front.
- generally I would caution against anyone doing a full time unfunded PhD *anywhere* (even Oxbridge), but others will disagree with me on this. This applies particularly, in my opinion, to anyone wanting to pursue an academic career, as the chances of the 'investment' paying off are so slim.
- depending on what you're doing, it can be good to mix it up and not do all three of your degrees at the same university.

Depending on your field, strong research methods training might be important, so you might want to compare what both institutions have on offer in addition to HazyJane's list.
I would also say that an unfunded PhD is to be avoided if possible, and would agree with the advice that you need to look at the reputation of the department rather than institutions. You might want to ask your MA dissertation advisor for some blunt advice, on whether the ex-poly dept you're considering is considered good in the field or not.

Definitely. And also the likely availability of the respective supervisors. The supervisor can make or break the project.

My thoughts are that you need money to live - if you don't get funding can you live? If you, you'll need funding.

Take the funded opportunity. I was in precisely your position some years ago and still regret going for a RG uni vs. a full funding opp. Take the money and run. Learn to publish papers and get the thing done as soon as you can. No one interviewing you will care much in 4 years' time because you have already been to an RG university. A cade of been there, done that.

Not sure I am convinced about the "If it's free, its always better" argument. Its just the easiest way. If you can fund yourself with minimal to moderate stress go to the RGU IF and only IF it has the better department or supervisory team. I believe that the "graduate prospects" section on the ranking sites are there for a reason. Sure its not any type of guarantee, however I do believe unis are ranked for relatively valid reasons, one of these being the quality of research being produced (in the aggregate).

I can only echo what others have said, in that look at the reputations of the departments rather than the Universities as a whole. I had two offers, one was Russell Group, one was an ex-Poly. I ended up chosing the ex-Poly and gained my PhD 4 years later after working in a good department with a good leading supervisor.

I then did a (2nd) post-doc in the department I had turned down at the Russell Group University. I had a nightmare year with a bullying head of group and a sidekick (de)mentor, where I literally counted the days until my contract ended.

Ideally you would chose the better department. If it's the ex-Poly with the funding, then no problem. If it turns out to be the Russel Group Uni. position without the funding, is there any possibility you could apply for funding yourself from one of the research councils? If the difference is dramatic, then I would exhaust this option before accepting the ex-Poly.

However, to fund your PhD at the Russell Group Uni., you will be looking at £50,000 minimum to cover fees and living expenses over the three plus years. This single financial consideration may mean the ex-Poly is the only practical option. But if the Russel Uni. department is that good and money is no object, then take that option instead.

If money is not a problem, make sure you visit each department, meet the supervisors and if possible talk to students out of earshot of the supervisors to gain a more genuine impression. This will tell you about support of supervisors and colleagues you might expect. I was allowed to do this at the ex-Poly and not the Russel Group Uni. and that helped a little in my decision. However, money being money, if you can't afford the Russell Group Uni. and the ex-Poly is very unfavorable, I'd leave be and look elsewhere for a funded position with a good group / Uni..

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

To add to the above, if the Russell Group Uni. is unaffordable and the ex-Poly appears a very poor choice, I would opt to look elsewhere for another funded position (even if I had to wait) as I would want the best possible chance at my PhD with good support and without other influences affecting my studies. I'd rather delay a year for a good department rather than take a poor department on the basis of this funded position being there now.

I've had good and bad, and believe me bad is not worth any amount of funding if at the end of your PhD period you have nothing to show for it.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I did my BA at a Russell Group uni and my MA at an ex poly. They were both of a similar standard academically speaking. The ex poly was excellent in that it had a small community feel to it and the quality of the course was excellent and stimulating.

It sounds like you have been offered a strong opportunity there and I wouldn't get too hung up on the Russell Group thing to be honest :)

That's not really the argument I was putting forwards.

Obviously any funded offer still needs to be critically evaluated. But I think the risks associated with an unfunded PhD are not (for most people) worth it. As Ian says, the direct cost of doing a full time unfunded PhD in the UK is around £50,000 in fees and living expenses. But there are also indirect/opportunity costs. By doing the PhD full time, you prevent yourself from obtaining a paid full time job, which would probably pay you at least £15,000 a year. So if you factor in that too, you're looking at an 'investment' of around £100,000 into a qualification that has a low chance of guaranteeing the desired career path subsequently. For most people that would not be a smart investment.

So, if given an unfunded offer, I would only take it up if I could secure external funds (e.g. from charitable trusts) or do the PhD part time so as to (i) have an income and (ii) get employment history for my CV to fall back on if the academic career doesn't work out.

Good luck with your decision.

I would also echo the comment that it's hard to give advice without knowing the institutions involved. I would say take the funded place - unless the ex-poly is REALLY dire. Can you tell us which institutions they are?

Agreed. A good PhD is a finished PhD, if lack of funding is an issue go for funding unless the other uni dept is very poor. Russell group uni's can have some very dodgy depts in the ratings too!!!

'London's global university'
and
N...umbr.ia

(sorry to be cryptic- I don't want to give myself away too much)
Thanks for all of the advice so far.

And your PhD topic is codebreaking? ;)

Well, "London's global university" certainly has a very good reputation and is at the top end of the Russell Group rankings. I know less about N...umbr.ia. The importance of the difference may depend on the subject area. Also whether the uni/department has good working relationships with other institutes.

All I would say is that there is zero correlation between university prestige and how you will be treated as a PhD student. I've had PhD experience at two different Russell Group unis. At one I (and others) experienced bullying and decided to leave. At the other (less high profile) I have been treated better though not necessarily received much supervision. I'd say my experiences on both occasions were far more shaped by the department/supervisors rather than the uni itself.

I didn't mention earlier, but funding itself has currency on one's CV. If you are shown to have attracted funding at one stage in your career, you are more likely to attract it at your next stage. That might be unfair but it can be considered an endorsement of your work/your profile as a researcher.