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So I’ve recently had yet another bad experience with my supervisor. I’ve posted on here in the past with issues but s%&$ just keeps coming up and I’m really getting sick of dishonesty and general crappiness and lack of integrity. But I won’t go into details again because this I wanted to talk about something else and I may create another thread later anyway.

Basically speaking I view a PhD like an apprenticeship or traineeship w. You get horrible pay but you have someone is responsible for teaching you the trade, with the idea that you come out of it all with the skills to become an employable part of the workforce. Would you agree with this?

Now however in the traineeship situation there is a legally binding contract that is signed by both parties that states obligations concerning general working conditions, available facilities to most importantly to me the level of training and supervision. Now in a PhD there is no such contract, in fact nothing even remotely similar, so if there is an issue with student/supervisor there is nothing that can be done other than contacting the University grad department which often does not have any power and certainly doesn’t treat student and supervisor equally. So the student is worse off.

In another point the PhD environment is normally similar to a workplace environment. You would normally work within a team who’s project have a similar theme and with an overseeing ‘boss’ (supervisor) to oversee and guide work and manage projects. However as well, is this was an employer/employee relationship again there are legally binding contracts signed regarding workplace conditions as above. There are also overarching workplace laws regarding general workplace conditions including workplace harassment and bullying. Again, the student/supervisor relationship is not governed by these. And while bad bullying and harassment will normally be taken seriously, there is again much less recourse for the student compared to a proper employee.

Now I have read cases on this forum that I would think would be clear cut cases of harassment and workplace bullying. Not to mention cases where supervision has been far far less than adequate and something that in a traineeship environment would leave the supervisor in clear breach of contract.

It really annoys me that PhD students are really seen of as second classes citizens in this regard. A PhD is a solid commitment both in terms of time and effort yet we aren’t getting the protection that others are getting. And in a lot of cases, at least as judged here, we need it. Don’t get me wrong there are rules, but reading through mine they only state what a student can and can’t do during candidature and don’t place any restrictions on the supervisor.

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I would love to help create some sort of legally binding contract to govern the rights and responsibilities of student and supervisor throughout candidature. Minimum levels of supervision and project guidance would be the major points. The trouble is because PhD are going on around the world and I am just one person I don’t really know where to start and it’s going to take a lot of people behind it for it to go anywhere.

Would anyone here care to share there thoughts on the issue or offer advice (or even support)?

Thanks for listening.

Basically you just have to get rid of the supervisor if you have problems like that. It's the only way I think.

I fully agree and have said pretty much what you are saying in previous posts. I am amazed what people let their supervisors get up to and say/do, both with and about their work, and about themselves. I find it astounding that most universities seem to have little recourse for any assessment of supervisors whatsoever. None of my fellow PhDers (I am slightly different being an RA) have had any opportunity to assess or give official feedback anonymously about their supervisor. There basically appears to be little accountability beyond getting students (and their fees/funding) through the door.

This is not to say that all supervisors are bad, just that it is so easy for them to be bad! Do they get training in how to supervise? I don't know but I would suggest that from the stories on here many either do not or attend a day course that they instantly forget.

It is the one thing about the PhD process that needs to be sorted, but I'm not entirely sure how that would be done. The idea of contracts is a good one, but how would that go from being a PhD student's idea to being actually done?

All good ideas but I don't have an answer to offer. I do have previous horrible experience with my undegrad supervisor who behaved along those lines. From my experience my supervisor had some sort of qualification nicely displayed on his desk praising his abilities to supervise. It couldn't have been more far off! But.. nothing happened even if I complained.

What about the head of school Damned? They are not there just to look pretty. Go knock on their door and complain? And complain maybe also to the organisation that provides the funding. I have a friend who had major problems with her supervisor so she left the PhD but before leaving she wrote a letter to the head of school and to the organisation providing the funding and things got sorted. She was offered her PhD back and they also made adjustments so that she can work without that supervisor.

Academia lucks funds a the moment and showing an ugly face by professors is not gonna get them any funding. At least that's how i see it. If i had money to give away to research I wouldn't give it to a professor that his students drop like flies, no matter how much of a genius he thought he was.

I think this is a great idea, but I'm not sure how we, as PhD students, could implement it. My plan is to be as conscientious as possible, while pushing for this kind of thing, when my turn comes as a supervisor - or head of department (you never know...).

Meanwhile I think the best course of action is to leave and find a better one wherever possible. That's what I did when I realised just how rubbish my first supervisor was. I found someone with a top notch rep as a researcher and educator - I am very lucky.

I broadly agree, although I would note that there are also examples on this forum (very much me included) where people get frustrated with supervisors' actions and lack of support, but actually, sometimes that is part of the process. For example, I had just 2 meetings with my sup in my first year - but now I realise she did that to make sure I was working out on my own etc. 3 years down the line I can definitely look back on some of the more frustrating moments and realise the point of them now.

However, I'd imagine something like this will come in soon. If my uni is anything to go by, then PhD students will be far better supported in the future. Our undergrads (paying £9k a year next year) are literally spoon fed everything - we've just been told we have to view draft essays from each student for each essay next year before we mark the final ones - madness! and when those students reach PhD level they will probably expect similar treatment.

Good points. The fact is that there is a consolidated way of thinking that needs to be changed. Most universities have a code of practice that supervisor should follow, but this is seldom checked by anyone. If any problems arise the attitude is that of brushing the dust under the carpet.

I you are funded by a research council, don't be surprised if you will be asked to copy your annual report to your supervisor. Your supervisor though, will not be deemed to send a copy of his report to you. It is obvious that the system allows unacceptable behaviour to happen, but it is neither you, nor me or a group of postgraduates that are going to change this, not overnight anyway. I am not surprised at all that this thread did not receive many posts. I think that there is a mixture of fear and awareness that this is what you have to go through in order to be part of the academic world, and thus it is pointless to fight back.

There are many good supervisors out there, so we should not generalise, but it is obvious that the current system is unbalanced and aim to protect the "caste". On our side, I think that we should accept that a good researcher/lecturer is not necessarily a good supervisor and vice versa, and that striking a balance is extremely difficult.

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Corrine, I agree with a lot of what you have said, but I disagree that there is an awareness and acceptance amongst us that this is what we have to go through, and that challenging it is a waste of time. Well, it is certainly not true in my case. I would never let anyone treat me like that if I could possibly help it: I left my rubbich supervisor and put in a report to her head of department, plus a complaint ith full details and evidence to the postgrad officer. I really think that accepting the kind of bullying and 'spanner in the works' supervision the poster is refering to should be avoided whenever possible. If we don't speak out this will never change, plus, I know that as far as my own mental health goes, it is bad news to allow tis kind of thing to happen without some kind of retort. The people I know of that have accepted this kind of bullying rubbish as part of the process are left with a demoralised and slightly depressive negative air - they probably won't make great supervisors.

Plus I agree with Sneaks that often students don't realise what supervisors are up to and can misinterpret the engendering of independent thinking as neglect - or just be temporarily bamboozled by something their sup does. Any system needs to be monitored for the well-being of both sides. I'd hate PhD supervision to end up with the kind of binds we face as undergrad lecturers where students often don't have to think for themselves and can't deal well with being challenged..

Hi Eska,

I couldn't agree with you more, and you have certainly shown your strength by working to change your situation, and succeed. I wasn't suggesting that student should accept bad supervision in silence, but that many people do not have your strength, or their personal situation does not allow them - or they feel that way - to do anything about it. I know a number of PGs in my department who had to go through nightmare supervisions and didn't lodge an official complaint.

I agree with you, it is wrong, but this the way it is, especially in small departments where there is little choice of supervisors. I think that if stories like yours could be made available to other students - maybe through student support services - more people would feel compelled to step forward and fight for change. 

However, I still think that there is a mentality that need to change in academia that has been built over several generations, and that may be difficult to eradicate.

Sorry, but the "I was teaching you to be an independent researcher" doesn't wash with me. We are adults, if that is the plan then it can be explained to us before hand. i.e. "I will only have x meetings with you. This may seem a low number of meetings but it is to help you learn to be a more independent researcher.". Just not giving much supervision then saying that at the end, whilst it may have been the genuine reason for doing it, is not the correct way to go about it.

I think the "we are adults" bit is what supervisors sometimes seem to forget (I should point out that mine is actually pretty good). Some, it would seem from this board, sometimes forget we are human...

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It’s good to hear that there is some positive support and discussion towards this idea after a lull. And all of you make some good points.

Yes we are adults and deserve to be treated as such, but certainly also as newcomers to the field, and thus should be given training, induction and assistance from ‘bosses’ that is appropriate to the role we are undertaking. But being treated as adults means that things such as false independence (where someone is left without supervision to find their own way) and ‘soft deadlines” (a personal pet hate) should not be used.

The issue is students always have the choice to leave a supervisor. But often it means that the student must also effectively leave the project, along with the blood sweat and tears already invested in it as there is not another supervisor with the appropriate experience or expertise in the field the fill that gap. And yes, supervisors in the vast majority of cases are necessary, even though something it seems they are a necessary evil.

And no, at a lot of universities there is not requisite for supervisors to attend any sort of specific supervisor training. If there is any it is often a very short course (1 day or less). I have encouraged my own supervisor to attend some held, but he did not and it was no compulsory for him to.

To Eska, you said you left your supervisor and left behind notes to the head of department and postgrad officer. But I ask, what happened to your old supervisor as a result? Yes, they lost a good student, but did they get any sort of reprimand at all as a result of your letters? My guess would be no.

How about creating a thread where students can leave feedback or request feedback for supervisors? Like for example, people can ask "what is this supervisor like" and students who have worked with them can give feedback in the forum or in a PM.

I know this doesn't solve the problem but wouldn't you have rather known a bit of what your supervisor was like before you took the plunge and had gotten stuck in this situation? All I'm saying is since the university is not protecting the student then maybe the student should protect the student.

A good idea in principle but I doubt it would work in practice as there are so many supervisors across the world! Even if you made a specific wobsite that was signed up to by 80% of PhD students (this alone would never happen) you would then get the problem of slander and other legal problems from supervisors who feel they have been misrepresented. After all, it is SOMETIMES the student at fault and not the supervisor, yet the student blames the sup.

For anything useful to happen there would need to be regulation brought in, probably at a national level, but certainly at a university level. The chances of this are, I reckon, pretty minimal.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but as annoying as the situation is, we are unlikely to make the blindest bit of difference unless someone seriously dedicates some time to it. None of us will because we kind of have the whole PhD thing to be getting on with.

It is nice to know though that I'm not the only one who thinks this is a problem!

Maybe someone should do a PhD on the topic!