hello all-this may seem like a strange post, but it is a cumulation of several issues i have been confronting related to my age: i am a 23 year old (first year) phd student and i have two seemingly contradictory problems regarding age: (1) i have trouble making friends in my department almost all the graduate students are over the age of 30 and i feel that there is a comraderie between them and the professors which i cannot seem to establish, more importantly (2) since i began my phd studies, i have started to 'feel' old for the first time in my life and have confronted his stressful urgency to 'do something big' that will make me 'remembered'--it is stupid and egoistic, but i always felt i had that drive inside of me and that 'i was one of those people' who thinks outside of the box and people want to know and understand. for some reason, i have let myself go not only physically but also in terms of my ambitious visions of the person i would like to become. i almost feel as if intellectually, physically, and ambition-wise i have been leaving the track i have set out for myself only several years ago (in my 'prime' years). it particularly bothers me when i see the facebook guys and the google guys and the 16 year olds with with book deals, and the famous 19 year old movie stars and these public people whose activities are highly monitored (it particularly bothers me when drew barrymore or george clooney or angelina jolies are getting attention for their focus on 'human rights' as if their voices are more valuable then the hard working behind the scenes scholars who have put a lot of work into organizations, books, etc but hardly get as much attention even though what comes out of their mouths is much more intelligent than what a 21 movie star has to say). anyway-getting off track, but this is a depressing aspect of phd studies that i have encountered---its like i am putting in so much work into my future but no one cares or sees how hard i work while i see the public celebration of celebrities and 17-year old harvard undergraduates who are changing the world while i am sitting at a library writing about something that no one gives a crap about and watching my youth flee in front of my very eyes, feeling uninspired to 'change the world' and yet feeling the pressures of acting 'grown up' in front of a 30+ year old phd student body and of course, much older department staff. bottom line, however, it saddens me that phd students do not get enough media attention on their projects.

Although your post leads me to question your motives for PhD studies, Kudos for actually admitting what many keep to themselves. Most of us academics are here on a mix of ego, insecurity and dubious aspirations of greatness (or the good holidays and access to young impressionable members of the opposite gender).

I am slightly confused though. Are you saying you would rather have the ephemeral star status of a D list Big Brother winner than the hard won, graft generated reputation that say someone like Richard Dawkins has? Those 13 year old undergrads dont usually change the world.

In fact very few people monumentally change the world, and I would bet that one of those people will not be you. Don't worry about it, it won't be me either. As you say, you are probably writing something no one apart from a handful of people give a crap about. Why would you expect media attention? I cannot imagine any phd student would actually warrant wide scale attention, because as the bottom rung in the academic ladder you are unlikely to be leading a project to cure aids or discovering life on mars. You may be contributing but at this stage you are going to be a tiny cog in a larger machine.

You can still be remembered. You publish in your field, you make a reputation, you become an expert in that area. Only they won't be making statues, but you get name checked in lectures and in conferences. For me, better to be remembered for the right reasons than the wrong ones.

Blunt I know, but I am a yorkshireman, call a spade a spade and all that.

Get a grip, you're only 23...



You said it!

I would like to make a correction, I am not saying that I would want to be a D lister on a random television show, but what upsets me is that those people get more attention in terms of 'supporting a cause' than a PhD student or a scholar (of course there are exceptions such as Richard Dawkins whom I love and of course there are 'academic' circles) and that PhD students overall are often times over-looked by the media as people who 'represent' and important element of our society and 'causes'--For example, I am looking at a New York Times section specifically dedicated towards holding a camera in front of an actor/actress and them simply talking about really nothing important in particular (favorite foods, favorite childhood memories)---of course there is an audience for that, but why would we scoff at a section through reputable media outlets on 'up-and-coming' researchers? Apart from the very hidden 'academic journal' and 'academic conference' culture, I just feel in general that PhD students are not 'celebrated' as much as other youth-sub cultures of society (a rock band or what not). Why aren't there "Vanity Fair" equivalent magazines detailing the lives of young up-and-coming researchers? This is saying something completely different from what you are saying about my incentives of being a PhD student-I highly revere research and PhD studies and course searching for a cure for cancer, etc. but I just do not think young researchers are respected and revered publically (see the threads on PhD students who have confronted people who do not think PhD is a 'real job') as much as the the next D-lister reality star or the actors whose 'voices' carry much more weight in politics and human rights than those who give their jobs. I do not mind celebrity news media, but I feel as if it has gotten to the point that celebrities have more 'access' to voice their less-than-developed opinions than those who do have something to say. Anyway, thanks for the post!

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Hi I started PhD first year at 23, and am the youngest in my department and it's fine!! I hardly remember the age thungy until someone points out "Oh....you've got so many years to build a life in etc etc!"...

23 is a fine age to start a PhD, and I'm loving it. And why are you comparing with showbiz stars???

And there's no reason to feel presurrised to "act grown up". You ARE grown up at 23. It's a real shame if you have to put on an act!

Rosy-I wrote this thread to see if others feel this way and how they have dealt with these feelings and not to be beaten down with short, smart comments.

The show-biz thing is just an example just to show how little 'weight' Phders' voices and opinions seem to hold in mainstream society-that's all.

Sorry... :$ Bad day! Plus I wish I was 23 again!!!

You have plenty of time to do something in your research career that is media worthy as you put it, so I wouldn't worry if I was you. The facebook and google guys (and any very young, uber-successful people) bother me too but just because someone hasn't achieved world-renown before the age of 20 doesn't mean they never will!!!

By the way, your youth is not fleeing yet, that's for sure :-)

Because no one would pay money to read what you, I or anyone else on this forum would have to say.

Oh, and also in the wider picture, those actors/actresses you talk about are the very few succesful ones. You don't hear about the legions of extras, bit players and waiters awaiting their big break. In academic terms the latter group is our equal, rather than Tom Cruise - who would be on par with someone like Charles Darwin in academic terms. Are you honestly saying you are at that level already? As a first year PhD student?



You do, but hardly anyone else does. Otherwise we would all be driving Ferraris, and beating the crowds from our doors. We are in the tiny, tiny minority and for good reason -our work is complicated, hard to see, and often has no immediate application or commercial purpose. A recipe to be overlooked for certain.



We all have something to say. Being a PhDer does not magically make an opinion on anything more valid. Btw, how do you know that your, or my, opinion is not equally less-than-developed than Susan Boyle or Jordan (on anything other than the very, very narrow field you are starting to look at)?

wow i thought that this forum is a support group for phders--i was completely wrong to think that i would get any support (as those who cry about resubmissions) on a topic about age and 'voice' in society, but i guess not. i would never say that i am on the level of charles darwin-that is such an asinine claim that i am shocked to read it. i am simply making a comparison between what seems to be popular and what does not. i wish phders would be more popular because we do have important things to say in our own fields and i think that the general public would have much to learn. it is also not like phd students just pop out of no-where, we have taken the initiative to continue learning and many of us have come a long way and even first year students have something to say. it is interesting, to me, to see how much beaten down someone can get on this forum simply because they do not adopt the idea that phders are doomed to a life of silence and work behind the scenes in solving the battlers for cancer without getting much attention at all unless they make a break-through once-in-a-lifetime discovery. to me, this approach does not seem any different than the romantic idea of a 'starving-artist' --and of course if an artist is not starving then the starving-artist posse simply doubt the very reason why the artist is an 'artist' in the first place. i am simply advocating here for a more wide-spread respect for phd students in the public media eye, and i cannot believe how much negative feedback this post is receiving. honestly, i am really disappointed.

I think I got the wrong end of the stick. When you wrote your first post I thought you were asking in a genuine spirit of enquiry about WHY your wished situation isn't happening. Like the academic that I am, I sought to provide my own argument about why the status quo exists and is unlikely to be changed in the forseeable future. Please, DO point out the flaws in my argument and we can debate it, as this is exactly why I got into academia in the first place.

I don't wish to denigrate you as an individual, but I do wish to challenge some of the assumptions (e.g. PhDers being experts over celebs, deserving coverage, etc). The Charles Darwin thing was an extreme attempt to illustrate a point, not draw direct comparison. Apologies if it offended you.

But it is just that. A wish. I wish it too but realise its unlikely to happen for many social and cultural reasons.

Also I am curious. What is it that you have to say that we all need to hear? If it is genuinely insightful, you can write to/ for the newspapers yourself like Ben Goldacre, Petra Boynton, Alain De Botton, Tim Harford or Tanya Byron (all academics) and you will be on your way.

I am also wondering if you actually have thought about the downsides of your wish. For the record, I was on TV two times as my PhD was part of a "sexy" project in a topical health/ psychology related field. My experience both times was they completely over simplified my findings, tried to get me to say thing that were complete speculation as fact, and focussed on the pretty brain scans and colourful pictures rather than the real significant findings. I recieved the "media attention" you seem to crave and was worse of for it.

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That's not what I see.  Possibly not the support you hoped for but support is there. Pour your heart out on the internet and then no one replies to your post - that's a lack of support.  That's not happened here.



Oh, and welcome :-)

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OK, I'm returning to this above. I am exactly your age and same PhD situation etc etc. I just cannot find myself to be sympathetic to this discourse of "feeling old" that you have going on here. What is this? You know you are one of the youngest. I know that I am. What is this about feeling old? who are you comparing with? Ballet dancers who are 'spent' early? Or academics, where exeprience and wisdom count? So, I think much of the sympathies of people on this forum will disappear with this 'feeling old at 23' thing.

Second, pull yourself together. Accepting criticism is a normal part of PhD life. In being unable to accept criticism you are really demonstrating a need to "grow up". And 30 something isnt a huge difference, sorry. I am ur age and I work in a depatment where I have briillaint cross generational intellectual exchanges with my supervisor, who is precisely double my age and a little more. So? It's completely great. And I do not know why, but your thing about "acting grown up" is sounding completely weird to me. Why must anyone act grown up, when one is on an intellectual mission, in an intellectual environment where one is in ones twenties?

And please know that learning to accept criticism and harsh words is the biggest lesson to learn in academia. ANd very often, it's for your own good.

Eueu, what an interesting post. My views on this are inseparable from a belief that we are ultimately spiritual beings, created by a loving God to know Him and to worship Him. Acquiring a high proficiency in an art or profession is a form of worship if it's done selflessly and contributes, in however small a degree, to the moving forward of an ever-advancing world civilization. Why show any affection for perishable things when each day we are hastening towards our tombs? "Put away all covetousness and seek contentment; for the covetous hath ever been deprived, and the contented hath ever been loved and praised."

======= Date Modified 27 May 2009 22:43:49 =======
Hi,



First of all can i just say that as I was reading this, I thought that some of it honestly could have been about me! I am also a 23 year old first year PhD, and the people I work closely with are all much older (my supervisors late 30s). Some of the students working on related fields I feel have established more of a working/social relationship with academics--I feel, based on the fact that they too are older (27+), and probably more confident. Sometimes I feel like my supervisors do not take me seriously because I can stll have very childish, immature moments, look young and at times am not very eloquent. Much of this is probably me being insecure, but recently my secondary sup. had a dinner party and invited some students but not me. I know this wasn't a personal thing, and that he would have had his reasons, but part of me just thought--he wouldn't 'fit in' at one of my dinner parties,so obviously he thinks i wont fit in at his. I took this personally.



Despite this, most of my close friends work in environments such as advertising, retail, fashion, along with other young, like-minded people, and as I am sitting in my room re-writing the most boring conference paper in the world, I can't help but worry about my mis-spent youth! It's ridiculous, because I am doing something amazing, which i love.



I honestly think (and frequently remind myself) that this is just a phase, a kind of awkward age where you were only 19 (it seems) 5 minutes ago, but at the same time, that feels like a life time ago, so you're kind of caught in between wishing to be that age, with no responsibilities, and wishing to be a bit older, so you have some respect.

ALSO, I TOTALLY get the feeling old thing. I've actually been panicking about it for about the past 6 months. I know it's ridiculous, but it is definitely not uncommon, I have lots of friends who also complain about feeling 'old'.