Probably more a question for the lab-based people, but any thoughts welcome. Just wondered if anyone else has ever struggled with a job for so long (and tried so many approaches) that they've begun to wonder whether it was just them being stupid, or that the task really isn't do-able (at least, with the equipment available to them)?

My supervisors are very friendly but not really lab based - all they can really do is offer vague reassurances like "Don't worry, I'm sure you'll sort it out". But I'm beginning to think I really won't "sort it out" and my industrial partners are getting impatient.

I know what you mean.. Is there no one else in your lab who has done something similar before and could help you out?

i know exactly how you feel. you won't know if something is fundamentally impossible or not until you delve in and try, that's the risk you run when you do something that has never been done before. Sometimes it seems biologically impossible to get the result you need, and no matter what you try, its becomes like banging your head against a brick wall.

Neither of my supervisors are lab people either, so i do feel like i am on my own a great deal of the time. I can't really go to them with my problems, because they won't understand - it's not their field of expertise. And i don't have the knowledge or experience to come up with solutions myself.

i have decided things need to change. My lack of expertise + my lack of training + the wrong supervisor for my project + being in the wrong lab + the large risk of my project failing = a recipe for disaster. i am seriously looking into doing my lab work as a visitor in another lab.

Thanks both for your replies. Tricky; there is one other person in the lab but they have never done anything like this. Its the high-throughput nature of the analysis that's the bugger; most PhDs here are doing small scale stuff.
Sim: you describe just how I feel. I do have some experience but not of such large-scale stuff, and a huge amount of money is riding on this project working out. On the other hand, the machines that I should really be using, on which I think my methods would work, always seem to be broken and waiting for "the engineer".
The worst is always having to explain to the industry people, sure they must think I'm full of excuses.

Have you tried posting questions on the Protocol Online forum? I find this really useful (although I'm in molecular biology, not sure about other areas) as there always seems to be someone who has used the technique before or can offer possible solutions that people in your lab might not have thought of.

Yes, I've felt exactly like that. I think it's not very likely that what you're trying to do is fundamentally impossible (for purely scientific reasons). Like you say, it's just figuring out what you can do to make it work with the equipment and advice/knowledge (or lack of) that's available to you. That's been my experience when I've struggled with something for months and months. I got things to work when I really threw myself at them (I'm not saying you're not working hard enough, just an observation that my results came when, in absolute desperation, I worked like I was crazy - not long hours, but trying approach after approach and disregarding them if they didn't work almost straight away - without even trying to understand why they didn't. I'm sure that's not the correct scientific approach - it's certainly not how I imagined science worked, and it was very unpleasant, no calm, no easy pace...

but it's how I got something to work, that the literature suggested SHOULDN'T work, with my VERY limited resources. Going to stop writing in these brackets now!)
I don't think that's how science works in the best labs, but when the people who could solve your problems - the real experts in your field - AREN'T in your lab, maybe that's how it works. It's partly why I've decided I can't cope with a career in science. If I did decide to work on, I'd make sure I was working under the world leader (or very close to) in my field. That might sound a bit over the top, but if everyone took that approach I reckon there'd be much more progress made.

Some things will never work, or annoyingly will work for one person but not you, even if you copy what they did exactly.
If it doesn't work, the best thing you can do is work through systematically to eliminate problems e.g. I added bits of protocol back to my protein purification and established they didn't work(!)
I stored my protein under different consitions for days and kept checking the concentration to establish if I really was losing protein.
If nothing else, you can write up the problem solving approach you used in your thesis and/or use as an example in a job interview of something you found difficult and worked through!
Are there any similar examples in the literature so you can compare method, or can you set up a collaboration with a lab that does know about this stuff. It could save you time in the long run.

KatQ: do you have a link to that forum? I haven't heard of it but I'd like to have a look. Sue, thanks for your comments: I too have tried several things very quickly and chucked them if they haven't worked straight away, I was worried that I was the only one who did this. I know you should really sit and plan and repeat endlessly to be sure it isn't working, but who has the time for that? So I'm glad to hear that it worked for you. And like you, the literature says that what I'm trying to do isn't possible on the machines I've got to work with.

CC: I think I will definitely do as you say and write it up to show my problem-solving approach. It will look good in my thesis, but it won't please the industrial partners unless I can get the bloody thing to work...

www.protocol-online.org
then go to BioForum.

Definitely worth looking, you never know there might be an expert out there who just loves procrastinating on forums like all of us!

Oh, and it took me 8 months to get a ligation to work that was supposed to be really simple so I know how you feel! All I can say is to keep going, it will work eventually and it will feel great when it does!

Thanks KatQ: just had a look around and I'll definitely be using it Thans for the advice, feel better already knowing it's not just me.

yes yes yes! Im currently in my third year, and still havent got a particular technique that is the focus of my entire phd to work. Its realy hard to keep yourself motivated in the face of such adversity.....i'd say stick in there and try not to panic too much, but then maybe i ought to take my own advice....

It took me 2 years and a very experienced postdoc (who tried a new column for me) to sort out my protein problems once and for all