Hi,

I had my viva this week and was very straightforward, not particularly gruelling and my examiners were VERY positive about the work I had done. In the time where they make the decision I thought I had it in the bag however I was awarded a B (i). At Manchester University this is a resubmission within 6 months. Although this is not the worse case scenario I'm devastated as i have been responsible for every aspect of my study (getting funding, designing the study, recruitment, all the analysis etc.) and don't see how I could have done more.

The examiners unofficially told my supervisor that I would have passed under the guidelines at her university (sheffield) but as they wanted extra analysis done, that automatically makes it a resubmission. Also they said it was really A (ii) (award with major corrections) but because I have gone on to get a job as a postdoc they thought I would not have time to complete the corrections appropriately-so I feel i've been penalised for using my phd to boost my career!

I feel I've been robbed of my 'moment' after a 3 year build up and the worse part is that I don't really know what i've done that's so wrong. The same thing happened to a fellow phd student a fortnight before who has a fellowship at oxford whereas the only person to pass of our year worked on a project of someone else's design and was essentially a 'dog's body' to run the lab test. It just seems really unfair.

What also makes it worse is that I'm not so sure how often this happens as people are really shocked when i tell them as they don't think it ever happens. Does anyone have any similar experiences?

Cheers
James

hi James, sorry to hear.

the same thing happened to me last year. am now finishing corrections. take heart. it was really disappointing as my supervisor who was present in the viva promised i'd pass as we waited for the outcome.

yours is a good outcome. i got major corrections after 5 years at it and no meaningful supervision at all.

6 months in that context really is nothing - depends how you look at it. just put in the 6 months and totally forget about manchester uni. ps - i also go there. so i know what you mean about unrealistic standards.

jimmynew, you are not alone. I received 'revise and resubmit in 12 months' for the same degree (PhD) one month ago. I still haven't received the examiners' report but I am determined to work hard, resubmit and hopefully get that degree! In my university (also in the UK) we have minor corrections= 1-3 months, major corrections = 6 months, revise and resubmit = 12 months, then award of a lower degree of straightforward fail. I got my r&r after 4.5 years of work (FT). I have found out that about 1 in 12 theses gets revise and resubmit, but the vast majority of the resubmitted theses has a happy end (i.e. PhD awarded). We simply need to do exactly what the examiners want us to do. We can do this!!!

sorry to hear that man.

still, try to be positive. see at a pass with corrections and get going on it...if you get it done sooner than six months you will have your moment!!

having said that, i feel your frustration a little about the fact that some of us design and manage our own projects from day one and get the funding based on our own ideas and interests and then some people pick up a phd project and don't have to worry about the design and all those issues. i'm not saying they dont work hard at the project, merely that designing it and managing its direction us a huge part of what i do and from what ive seen in my faculty, some people literally have this done for them. one girl is never even in the country because she 'can't start' yet until some company gives her the go ahead...meanwhile she gets paid by the government here. grim.

still mate, try to look at it as a pass!! happy holidays

======= Date Modified 18 Dec 2011 11:56:44 =======

======= Date Modified 19 Dec 2011 08:28:48 =======
Hey James,

Just wanted to say- you're not alone.......I received the R&R outcome last summer and I'm frantically trying to work through my thesis corrections ready for next summer (deadline August 2012), although I want to finish by March 2012 so I can graduate in July 2012. I have a progress meeting after Christmas so I'm trying to bring my PhD up to a good enough standard to show significant progress.

For me, I was delighted with the R&R outcome as I was fully expecting an MPhil or an outright fail (as were my supervisors who reminded me 5mins before the viva!). My thesis corrections mostly involve deleting 60,000 words (eeeek, but I'm getting there!), but with no additional analyses and no further viva (hope they haven't changed their mind as I don't want to go through another viva!). So more corrections than pass- major corrections, hence a R&R outcome.

Following from positive feedback from my examiners, I now know they have no intention of failing me or awarding me with an MPhil- assuming that I follow each and every one of their (many!) corrections.  Well, I think comments in my examiners report including 'ground breaking', 'very important', 'important in targeting a much neglected topic', 'huge amount of work', 'very substantial thesis' etc etc are relatively positive anyway! I never had much positive feedback at all during the whole PhD process, so my examiners have given me some much needed confidence, reassurance and motivation to complete it.

I remember my PhD supervisor saying that he also had a R&R outcome because his examiners thought he would not be able to complete the PhD whilst working full time in a post-doc position- so sounds something similar to your situation.

By the way, I waited months for my thesis corrections report because the admin lady forgot to send them to me- keep checking with your department.

I know how you feel though! Most people at my department left with minor corrections or major corrections (including those who started a year after me!) and it does feel like I'm the only one with a r&r submit outcome, but I also know that it could have been a lot worse. At least our examiners are giving us the option to resubmit for a PhD. I'm viewing it as a pass after substantial corrections and a second chance to obtain this PhD.

You can do this James. It is very reassuring to see that I'm not the only one on this r&r journey!

Feel free to post etc if you need to rant! :)

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to say a really big thanks for all your positive feedback as has really been beneficial to hear other people's stories and sorry to hear other people have encountered similar situations.

After having the weekend to think about it I am feeling actually quite positive about it as it does seem Manchester does have very strict guidelines compared to other institutions as despite 'revise and resubmit' I don't have to include any new data or even change the context of any sections so really it does sound like I have major corrections. Being only 6 months makes me realise my supervisors were doing me a favour as i've already had the examiner's report and while there is nothing too difficult I need to perform, it would take me longer than a month (which is major corrections at manchester!). Plus it gives me more time to immerse myself in the thesis and get more publications out of it.

From what you have all said it does seem a bit of a poor system how a viva can be so subjective anyway due to different examiners but then when the actual guidelines differ between institutions it is almost a lottery what you'll get.

Once again thank you as you have all really helped me out and wish you all the best who are still trying to get their awards (we will get there!)

Cheers
James

======= Date Modified 19 Dec 2011 18:05:19 =======
Jummy, Pineapple and all of you who have received a R&R, this is not the end of the world. We have received a second chance. If our research was not good enough then the examiners would have failed us altogether. The examiners are not mean; they are only trying to help. This extra time we need to work on our thesis is NOT A WASTE OF TIME. It can make our thesis better and more publishable. In the meanwhile we can participate in more conferences, keep our research up to date, publish as much as possible, promote our work. We receive advice by the experts (the examiners), we need to listen to them and co-operate with them. I believe that after we get through this we will publish our work a lot faster than others, as our information will be fresh in our minds and up-to-date. Moreover, the advice of the examiners is better than the advice received by the editors of the various publishing houses, and as the examiners know their topic they show a commitment and interest in our work. Moreover, by getting R&R, we receive personal and more intense attention by both our supervisors and our examiners as they don't want us to fail. A fail of a PhD costs a ridiculous amount of money at university institutions. It is bad advertising for them and it means that their chances of getting funding drop significantly. Come on! We' ll get through this together! We know our topic very well. Our research is pioneering and we really enjoy it. Another few months, even another year, is nothing compared to what the future will bring! (up)

======= Date Modified 19 Dec 2011 22:05:22 =======
This is more common than you think - and every person I know who it has happened to got their PhD in the end. I'm sure you will be fine.

Small thing, though, I have the Manchester criteria right here in front of me on my examiners' report, and Aii is 'award subject to minor corrections being made to the satisfaction of the internal examiner' (within a month); Bi is commonly referred to as major corrections and officially is 'permitting submission of a revised thesis for examination without further research and without further oral examination'. Aii is minor not major.

Oh my goodness, I'm glad I found this thread! 1 in 12 theses get R&R and the majority pass? I SO needed to hear that! I'm coming to the end of a surprise R&R (everyone thought I'd pass - seems that the external examiner was a disastrous choice) and have had another huge set-back today when the external informed my Head of Faculty (long, inglorious story as to why it's him and not my supervisor in contact with the external) that she wouldn't be answering any requests for clarification on the examiners' notes. In my head that equates to "I have no intention of passing this student and am covering my back for when I fail her." But it's been a bad day (a bad nine months!)

James - your viva sounds very similar to mine, in all honesty! I thought it went really well and it was a terrible shock to get the result I did. Again, I was told unofficially that part of the R&R decision was down to the fact that I was working full-time at that stage and they were worried I wouldn't have time to complete in 6 months (but it seems a bit crazy - I mean, "Pass with major corrections" is at least a pass! The result they've given me could still allow my thesis to fail). Thanks for sharing your story - I completely understand the feeling of being robbed of your moment - all of my friends in the year below me have now had their vivas and passed straight out, and, while I'm absolutely delighted for them, it's a little bit heartbreaking for me.