Hi all,

I'm new here but desperately need some support.

Long story short; I submitted my thesis, had an awful viva; the examiners didn't understand my work and said they personally didn;t like the software I had used, despite it being a leading package in my field of study. They said I hadn't done enough work to justify a PhD, and have recommended a R&R, for which I have 12 months.

Everyone was shocked by the outcome - me, my supervisors, etc. I even sent my thesis for external review, and got it back with glowing comments.

So it seems I was unlucky enough to get disinterested examiners who i) didn't like my software choice, ii) clearly hadn't read or understood my thesis properly.

I lodged a complaint to my University, and requested different examiners for the second viva, but it has not been upheld. My complaint was sent to the two examiners so that they could respond - and they have responded with scathing vitriol, and a lot of mis-truths about what happened in the viva, contradicting some of the things I raised.

I have completely lost faith in the system. I worked hard, produced good work, satisfied all the University criteria for a PhD and yet have not been awarded it.

Now my position is this: I have the opportunity to revise and resubmit, and be re-examined by these two examiners in 12 months time. But, what's the point? They will STILL have their personal prejudices against my methods, but now they are also majorly pissed off because I complained about them. I could waste another 12 months of my life slaving away and getting into more debt, and potentially STILL not pass next time.

Or, I could just quit now, and take legal action against my University for educational negligence and breach of contract to try and reclaim some of my costs. I have a good case.

Has anyone out there done a R&R and had a positive outcome?! Or sued for negligence and been successful?

Neither, but I thought I would present a perspective that might be useful-not right now-you are probably righteously angry-but perhaps later on "down the track" *(* Local colloquialism from obscure outback region in Australia ).

If you do go down the R & R pathway with the same examiners, I'm betting that they will pass you in a year's time. They will just want to see you take their criticism seriously and make a few adjustments and then you will be awarded your PhD. So while this seems incredibly unfair and doubtful now-I'm punting that they just want to see these changes acknowledged and some adjustments made.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is because they are right, just that this is a likely outcome. So probably this message isn't going to bring much joy right at the moment but it might help with decision making a bit later on. Ignore it though if you need to. Ive just anaethestised myself with a couple of ciders so understand if the desperation and associated feelings don't buy this message in any shape or form.

Hi skyblue,

Firstly, I'm sorry to hear that you've been through such a terrible ordeal. I couldn't agree with you more about your loss of faith in the system. It's the inconsistencies that have made me question the system also.

Can I ask whether you have yet received the examiners' report? I was advised by my supervisor that they cannot fail me if I action EVERYTHING on that report. FYI - I received substantial corrections to be completed in a six month period. The examiners even told me how to layout my resubmission report: correction required, old page number, new page number and a comment how I have addressed the correction.

Hi Skyblue,

Really sorry to hear about your viva outcome, but R&R is not the end of the world. I have supervised someone through the experience, having taken over supervision following the viva. So I have seen the pain, I have seen the emotional rollercoaster and the motivational impact. However, my student reworked the elements of the thesis and resubmitted 10 months later. Passing on the second viva without corrections so it can be done! Please keep positive, work with your supervisors and you will get through this. Remember the examiners are human, it is horrible to have to give R&R but all they want is to help you improve the work so they can pass you, My student also made a complaint and felt the examiners had not read the document etc, at the end of the second viva we had a group photo taken by the independant chair - they know it is just shock, so don't worry they will not hold a complaints against you! Keep possitive and you will get through this!

Tester

I had a similar experience in my viva, although I passed with minor corrections, I feel the external wanted more substantial revisions but the internal managed to convince him otherwise.

Sure, some part of yours and my experience could be lack of clear explanation, but other parts of it are arrogant examiners not listening to the student and thinking they know best. They don't. At the end of the viva, my external asked a question that showed he hadn't understood one of the basic principles of my work - I know my thesis and my verbal explanations were clear - it was just too far out of his area for him to understand.

I would say just do the corrections they ask and you will pass. It's very rare to fail after an R&R. If you did the changes they asked, how can they justify failing you? If you are worried, you can ask for an independent chair to be present in your next viva, or even your supervisors, if your university allows this.

Hi Skyblue,

I’m sorry you’ve had to go through this – it resonates strongly with my own experience (which does have a happy ending). Mine involved a fairly brutal viva, an R&R verdict, and examiners who 'moved the goalposts' to MPhil after I'd submitted PhD corrections. It was only at this point that a Subject Access Request (details below) showed the original viva had been corrupt and biased, rendering everything subsequent – more than a year’s work - null and void. There followed a long but eventually successful process to get them overruled, the thesis re-examined by new examiners, and the PhD belatedly awarded. I’m not implying that the same would happen to you, but if you do want to challenge the viva outcome now, you need to work within the university’s internal procedures. In terms of immediate guidance:

1. Familiarise yourself with your uni's examination rules and appeals process (esp deadlines for challenging a decision, and the grounds under which you can do so). Arguing that it's unfair/unexpected simply isn't enough.

2. Use the Data Protection Act: Submit a Subject Access Request to the the Data Controller at each examiner's university. Ask to see each person's emails and records relating to you or your PhD, from the time at which they were appointed to the role. They are legally obliged to provide this information within 40 days, and can charge £10. This can highlight any procedural irregularities, bias etc. that would otherwise be left to speculation.

3. Contact Daniel Sokol at Alpha Academic Appeals. He will give you an honest idea of whether you have a case, work efficiently to draft a statement, and (if allowed) represent you at an appeal hearing. Admittedly expensive but money well spent. In an ideal world, such support should be readily available through your institution/student union etc but that certainly wasn't the case for me..

All the very best and please let me know if I can be of any further help.

Thanks all for the support, it really does mean a lot to hear others' experiences, and some words of encouragement at what is a soul-destroying and very stressful time.

While looking through this forum, I have found a number of threads about people who get a R&R, but then fail again, a year later. So it is encouraging to hear other stories about those who have R&R and come out the other side with a positive outcome!

Thank you.

I'm 11 months into my 12 month R+R period, after not passing my viva last November.

You know what? EXPECT to feel angry, upset, disillusioned, and inept for the first few months following the viva. I did. I felt bitter. I knew I was better than this. I blamed everyone but myself.

Took me about 6 months, and a big step back from the whole thing, to realise it was for the best. 11 months after the viva, I'm just weeks away from submitting a MUCH better thesis. My supervisors are confident I have done everything needed to pass.

Tip: follow the examiner report TO THE LETTER. The report is effectively a tickbox list to passing your PhD.

Good luck.

A little late, but I've just posted a (massive!) new post about my own R&R journey - hopefully might help to read about someone else's experience!