Funding for second PhD attempt?
Hello!
First post :)
I was just wondering if anyone here has been successful in getting PhD funding from a university or research council for a second try at getting a PhD (different university, different research council, and different subject) after the first try went wrong (due to various factors)?
Is it possible, or is it something that universities straight out refuse to consider, or against research council rules or something?
I was just wondering if anyone here has been successful in getting PhD funding from a university or research council for a second try at getting a PhD (different university, different research council, and different subject) after the first try went wrong (due to various factors)?
Yes. To all three parts!
In my case, both PhDs were pre-funded projects that were advertised (i.e.I wasn't making my own proposal/funding application). I don't know if there are any policies that would deter PIs from accepting candidates in this position, but I suspect my case was helped by (i) a very supportive referee/mentor, (ii) having done a (funded) masters and worked as an RA in between PhD attempts and (iii) a sympathetic prospective supervisor who was more interested in what I could offer than what had gone before.
I guess all I can advise is be prepared that it *may* come up, at least in interview. Whatever the issues were, try to be informative but brief, and not defensive. I would imagine that the main thing they would be concerned about in such cases is whether the same problems would arise again, so if you can assure them that they wouldn't, that should go some way in your favour.
I was just wondering if anyone here has been successful in getting PhD funding from a university or research council for a second try at getting a PhD (different university, different research council, and different subject) after the first try went wrong (due to various factors)?
Yes. To all three parts!
In my case, both PhDs were pre-funded projects that were advertised (i.e.I wasn't making my own proposal/funding application). I don't know if there are any policies that would deter PIs from accepting candidates in this position, but I suspect my case was helped by (i) a very supportive referee/mentor, (ii) having done a (funded) masters and worked as an RA in between PhD attempts and (iii) a sympathetic prospective supervisor who was more interested in what I could offer than what had gone before.
I guess all I can advise is be prepared that it *may* come up, at least in interview. Whatever the issues were, try to be informative but brief, and not defensive. I would imagine that the main thing they would be concerned about in such cases is whether the same problems would arise again, so if you can assure them that they wouldn't, that should go some way in your favour.
Thanks for the reply! I think there are a few things that will count against me... firstly, I was very determined to get a PhD first time round, so I stuck it out right till I finally ran out of time, even though the wheels had come off some time before. And the other thing is that there is no hope whatsoever of an even vaguely positive reference from my first PhD supervisor (because I stuck it out for so long). I can get a stunning reference from my MSc supervisor, but obviously that's not so important.
I've made a query about a PhD place, but I haven't mentioned my previous PhD attempt so far. In an idea world I wouldn't ever mention it, but that's not really practical!
Ok, so if you're clear in your head what went wrong previously, and how it was that you ran out of time, you can think of ways to mitigate the risk of that happening again so as to communicate that to potential new supervisors for their reassurance.
Some other things to consider:
1. What were your original motivations for doing a PhD in the first place? Do they still apply?
2. Is it worth putting yourself through the process again? Will it help you get a job at the end of it?
3. Would it be worth you doing something else for a little while before trying again? Partly to recover from this experience (if need be), partly to get a new reference, partly to get some detachment from the situation.
One more thing to add - in my case PhD #2 was actually in another field (hence the masters in between). There is another forum member who had two goes at a PhD for a very different reason, but again, in different fields. If you're trying to stay in the same field, just a different topic, you may have to make a stronger case.
Hope this helps.
I haven't looked on other funding body websites, however, I've not found anything on the EPSRC website to bar people making a second attempt at a PhD from funding. It therefore may well be down to the University or Institute, and thus the interviewing members of staff whether or not a previous attempt needs to be considered on assessing an applicant's suitability.
The fact you failed may count against you. The fact you saw it through may either count in your favour or against you (either determined to succeed or you persisted in flogging a dead horse). The fact you've been through the process and thus know what to expect may count in your favour.
It may all come down to how well you sell yourself with regard to the three above points and what you would do differently this time to ensure no failure or reduce the chances of a failure second time around (planning, experimental design, time management, etc.).
Also, were there health reasons first time that affected you? The other forum member HazyJane refers to had health issues and despite these, managed on the second attempt to earn a PhD. However, I'll leave it to that member should they post to tell you what they did differently. I will say that their story is an inspirational one.
The "no-references" situation I can relate to after my mess of a second post-doc. You have mentioned your Masters reference and this plus other good references could be used to outweigh any absence of a reference from your first PhD attempt, showing your failure to be a one-off rather being characteristic of you as a person. Do NOT slag off your previous supervisor.
Finally, I can only reiterate HazyJane is saying ensure you have fully recovered from your first attempt physically, mentally and emotionally before making a second attempt. Bear in mind you'll be putting yourself through a second round of up to four years of a high stress situation.
Best of luck,
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
I got funding twice too. The first time, for 2 years, I was a full-time EPSRC-funded science student. I had to leave that after developing a severely disabling progressive neurological disease. I'm probably who HazyJane is referring to :)
I retrained, mainly to take my mind off horrific chemo treatment, part-time as a history student, picking up first an OU BA(Hons), then a Masters. Then, bravely, I thought I'd try for a PhD again, this time part-time. I self-funded my first year. In that first year I applied for AHRC funding. The application form asked me about prior research council (any research council) funding I had received, and warned that any funding I might receive now could be reduced accordingly. I declared my past EPSRC history, and why I had to leave it. And I was delighted to win funding from AHRC, in a competition where only 1 applicant in 5 won anything (humanities funding is very scarce, much more so than in sciences). And AHRC didn't reduce my amount at all in the end.
But I think every case is different. And I think it probably really helped that (1) I was looking at a totally different subject area the second time, and a totally different research council; and (2) the reasons why I had to leave my first PhD (medical, clearly no fault of my own).
Hi,
You might want to check the rules of the relevant Research Council to see if they say anything on this. For example, the ESRC seems to suggest here on p.14 of their guidance, that you would not be eligible for funding from them: http://www.esrc.ac.uk/_images/ESRC-Postgraduate-Funding-Guide-DTCs%20-%20August%202013_tcm8-28124.pdf
so different it seems from the EPSRC. I'd imagine university funding though is at the discretion of that university.
Ok, so if you're clear in your head what went wrong previously, and how it was that you ran out of time, you can think of ways to mitigate the risk of that happening again so as to communicate that to potential new supervisors for their reassurance.
Some other things to consider:
1. What were your original motivations for doing a PhD in the first place? Do they still apply?
2. Is it worth putting yourself through the process again? Will it help you get a job at the end of it?
3. Would it be worth you doing something else for a little while before trying again? Partly to recover from this experience (if need be), partly to get a new reference, partly to get some detachment from the situation.
One more thing to add - in my case PhD #2 was actually in another field (hence the masters in between). There is another forum member who had two goes at a PhD for a very different reason, but again, in different fields. If you're trying to stay in the same field, just a different topic, you may have to make a stronger case.
Hope this helps.
I am clear what went wrong, and it is medical, but 'soft' medical in that I don't have any paperwork to back this up, which is always going to be a problem.
My motivation for getting a PhD is still there, and if anything it is enhanced by the mess I made first time round. In truth, it probably won't help me get a job (except maybe in academia if I'm very lucky), but that's not my main motivation.
Is it worth going through it again? That's a big question. I feel like it's something I need to do, and I'm not getting any younger. The PhD I'm querying starts in Sep 2014, so even if I'm accepted I'll have plenty of time to build up to it (first time round there were a couple of weeks between applying and starting... for a while I was studying the first year of a PhD and the last year of a part-time MSc, while working as a TA in my PhD department and working my normal job!)
The proposed second attempt is in another field. The topic is similar, but the approach and the department is completely different.
I haven't looked on other funding body websites, however, I've not found anything on the EPSRC website to bar people making a second attempt at a PhD from funding. It therefore may well be down to the University or Institute, and thus the interviewing members of staff whether or not a previous attempt needs to be considered on assessing an applicant's suitability.
The fact you failed may count against you. The fact you saw it through may either count in your favour or against you (either determined to succeed or you persisted in flogging a dead horse). The fact you've been through the process and thus know what to expect may count in your favour.
It may all come down to how well you sell yourself with regard to the three above points and what you would do differently this time to ensure no failure or reduce the chances of a failure second time around (planning, experimental design, time management, etc.).
Also, were there health reasons first time that affected you? The other forum member HazyJane refers to had health issues and despite these, managed on the second attempt to earn a PhD. However, I'll leave it to that member should they post to tell you what they did differently. I will say that their story is an inspirational one.
The "no-references" situation I can relate to after my mess of a second post-doc. You have mentioned your Masters reference and this plus other good references could be used to outweigh any absence of a reference from your first PhD attempt, showing your failure to be a one-off rather being characteristic of you as a person. Do NOT slag off your previous supervisor.
Finally, I can only reiterate HazyJane is saying ensure you have fully recovered from your first attempt physically, mentally and emotionally before making a second attempt. Bear in mind you'll be putting yourself through a second round of up to four years of a high stress situation.
Best of luck,
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
That second paragraph is a nice summation of my thought processes. It's possible to see the first attempt as a positive or a negative depending on my current state of mind!
I think (I hope) that first PhD attempt can be seen as a one-off. I have never dropped out of anything before, and all other academic endeavours ended in top grades.
I have no plans to slag off my previous supervisor, but I will (if necessary) mention the reasons why I feel our working relationship broke down. I have a lot of respect for him, and he was very patient with me, even while others had given up on me. A very decent man.
I got funding twice too. The first time, for 2 years, I was a full-time EPSRC-funded science student. I had to leave that after developing a severely disabling progressive neurological disease. I'm probably who HazyJane is referring to :)
I retrained, mainly to take my mind off horrific chemo treatment, part-time as a history student, picking up first an OU BA(Hons), then a Masters. Then, bravely, I thought I'd try for a PhD again, this time part-time. I self-funded my first year. In that first year I applied for AHRC funding. The application form asked me about prior research council (any research council) funding I had received, and warned that any funding I might receive now could be reduced accordingly. I declared my past EPSRC history, and why I had to leave it. And I was delighted to win funding from AHRC, in a competition where only 1 applicant in 5 won anything (humanities funding is very scarce, much more so than in sciences). And AHRC didn't reduce my amount at all in the end.
But I think every case is different. And I think it probably really helped that (1) I was looking at a totally different subject area the second time, and a totally different research council; and (2) the reasons why I had to leave my first PhD (medical, clearly no fault of my own).
This is inspirational, and it makes my own reasons for dropping out seem very insignificant and unworthy indeed. Like you, my subject is a different subject and a different research council...
Hi,
You might want to check the rules of the relevant Research Council to see if they say anything on this. For example, the ESRC seems to suggest here on p.14 of their guidance, that you would not be eligible for funding from them: http://www.esrc.ac.uk/_images/ESRC-Postgraduate-Funding-Guide-DTCs%20-%20August%202013_tcm8-28124.pdf
so different it seems from the EPSRC. I'd imagine university funding though is at the discretion of that university.
...but this seems to put a halt to all my plans. The PhD I'm looking at would fall under the ESRC, so it looks like I'm stuck :(
I think there is some University funding too, but I've been warned the competition for that is much stronger.
Having established I can't hope to receive ESRC funding, need I mention the first attempt at all? I'm not going to lie about it if asked, but it doesn't show up on my CV as I have nothing to show for it. It's tempting...
Hello, I am a student currently on an AHRC funded PhD, but I am having my anxieties about whether the topic/period of my life is right for me. I have only been doing it for a few months, but I am being prescribed anti-depressants. I have gone straight through from BA, MA to PhD without a pause, and I am concerned that I might be unable to produce something worthwhile, I am also afraid that going into the particular field which this thesis prepares me for, at the particular institution at which I am studying, will close more doors in my future career than it will open. I apologise for having rambled but I've not yet found a place where I can speak openly up until now. Ultimately my question is about getting funding from the same body twice, because I cannot leave my field, Literature, but am afraid that the particular area I chose to specialise in, which was specified in the funding opportunity, is not where I want to be. But if it is impossible for the AHRC to fund someone twice then I have no choice but to persist.
I understand that compared to some of the people who have posted on here, my depression seems a petty issue, and I apologise for that, but I would like to get an idea of the logistics of my situation if at all possible.
Thank you very much.
Hi thedrop
I know from my ESRC funded interview PhD that despite being 30 at the time, they didn't really ask my about CV at all. I can't remember though, if submitting one was part of the application or not. So if you're not asked to submit a CV and not directly asked about your previous experience then you might be ok just to refrain from mentioning your past PhD. If there's an interview or an application process it may just entirely be centred around your academic qualifications and more importantly, your research proposal and how it fits with the department research interests. I wouldn't tell a direct lie but it's still worth pursuing an ESRC application. The ESRC administration is largely devolved down to institutions now in their DTC system so some of the process might vary from institution to institution. I know some interview and some don't. If you're serious about obtaining funding you should be applying to numerous institutions anyway. Finally, on the reference, it's not like a job application where they want a reference from your last employer and want to account for gaps in your CV so your Master's references should be fine.
