Now my sup is known for being a bit of a grump, but at the end of supervision today I informed her that I will be getting engaged to my boyfriend next month (we bought the ring together yesterday- am so excited!!). Her reaction was one of complete disgust. She ranted on about why did I have to be so traditional and boring and what a waste of time it all was, and refused point blank to congratulate me (to be fair, we aren't actually engaged yet- we've got 3 weeks to wait!). This was followed by an interrogation about when we're planning to have children. Then about an hour later she came looking for me and sat me down and said that if I was happy then so was she, but she was worried for my career if I get married and have a family because it's a sexist world and she's a feminist. I said that perhaps I was being naive but that I very much wanted both a career and kids, and that was that. Why is it so hard for her to be pleased for me? I know she's not interested in marriage or children but I am! Grrrr, what a misery! KB

congrats Keenbean! How come you have to wait 3 weeks?

Perhaps its a little bit of the green-eyed monster?

My sup told me not to have kids recently, she said "Do not even think about having a baby in the next 2 years Sneaks, you need to get on with your career". If I was in a 'normal' job, then she could be fired for saying something like that! Also, I'm starting to get peed off with putting my life on hold for my PhD :-s I don't want to carry on doing that for the next 5 years.

Anyway, I thought feminism was supposed to be about choice? i.e. you have the choice to be a mother and a researcher, you shouldn't be forced to be either one, it should be your choice to do what you want.

Congratulations Keenbean! And yes, what a grump! I thought you were going to say she came to find you an hour later to apologise for not congratulating you, or to make up for that somehow, but seems like she just doesn't know how to congratulate you! What a misery - must be difficult to go through life never seeing the joy in anything.....

I agree with Sneaks though - feminism is about having the choice. There was a time when getting married meant women had to give up careers altogether, and if we were still in that time then I could see the argument about women who are ambitious needing to avoid marriage - but we're not in those times any more, and if other women have had to fight to clear a path for us to have the freedom to choose how we manage careers and relationships, then it would be a tragedy to hem ourselves in by limiting the things available to us ourselves. (Hmm, that didn't come out as clearly as it seemed in my head, I hope it made sense!)

Anyway, both my supervisors are men and it doesn't seem to occur to them that me being female makes any difference, but my external examiner is a woman and she cornered me and had a very similar discussion as the one Keenbean's supervisor seems to have had. Maybe because she's had to battle hard, being about the only female at her level in a very male-oriented department. But I got very annoyed when (under questioning!) I told her that my boyfriend and I intended to live together as soon as we could afford it, and she suggested that me living with my boyfriend was a betrayal of my independence. She couldn't be further from the truth! It really wound me up! So I totally feel for you!

hi kb! I am so happy for you!!! congratulations!!!
however the world is, you have freedom of choice in your life, do what you want, whatever feels right!
always be happy--show that to your grumpy supervisor!!!

love satchi

Wow, if this is what feminism is, I don't want anything to do with it! How sad for your supervisor, I think she sounds somewhat lonely and frustrated and I agree that there seems to be some jealousy going on here. It's a real shame she can't share in your happiness but it's certainly her problem and not yours.

Anyway, congratulations Keenbean! It's really exciting news, although I am intrigued about the delay, like Sneaks. Surely once you've had the chat and found the ring you're essentially engaged. Is it just that you can't announce for three weeks?

Haha, yeah, the three weeks thing is a long story! My boyf was going to propose to me on holiday in 3 weeks time, but he let it slip and I guessed what was going on, and we just ended up laughing about it and I said he should carry out his plan and propose on holiday and I would pretend to be surprised! (I sort of felt guilty for sussing him out!). So we agreed he'll propose on holiday and we went to choose the ring together yesterday (he was nervous about choosing it on his own) but it won't be ready for two weeks as they need to order it then change its size. So it ties in pretty well with the holiday anyway! But it's killing me, practically being engaged but not quite there, I'm dying to tell everyone but I can't! As for my sup, I kind of expected a miserable response but it really grates on me that she couldn't even pretend to be happy for me! I'm not prepared to sacrifice the possibility of being happily married with children just to get a bit further on in my career, although my career is still really important to me. I think she sort of thought I was like her- a pure career girl- and now she's realised I'm not she's disappointed. Oh well, at least I got some congrats on here- thanks guys! Best, KB

Sounds great KB! I chose my ring with my hubby too and I was pleased I did, as we walked round and he was looking at really chavvy ones - bleugh. I wanted something a bit more pretty and nicely designed than a lump of rock on a piece of metal.

My sup sounds similar to yours KB, although she seems to think I can rely on my hubby to support me financially while I take 6 months off to finish of my thesis - aint gonna happen as we're skint and need to be a 2-wage house at the mo!

======= Date Modified 11 Jan 2011 20:47:17 =======
Congrats from me too Keenbean, lovely news :-) Must be really tough keeping that news to yourself. When he does propose you'll have to remember to act really surprised!

I also chose my ring with my now hubby all those years ago; I think we paid for it with a bit of cash, three credits cards...! We were stony broke at the time. Just had to get it re-sized up which is bit depressing though.

Stuff angry women supervisors.

Congratulations Keenbean! Don't let anyone spoil your happiness. When I told people at work I was engaged I was told not to bring my personal life to work - but that was life BP (before PhD) Personally I think that doing a PhD is the best time to get married have kids etc. I worked and found people still say things about having children, bring your personal life to work etc - there are bitter people everywhere and I have had some bad experiences and some great experiences. I am lucky now that I have a great supervisor who is flexible and understanding as I have kids. Doing a PhD can work in a non 9-5 way (but then I am doing social sciences). Don't put life on hold get on with. You can do it all - but it is harder and may take longer. As I have got older I have got much more choosy about who I would work with.

Cate

I changed my name when I get married - good job I had published so little! It's a good idea to think about your name early on in your career if you might want to change your name. I got lots of stick about changing my name - all from women. I don't mind if people keep their birth name but I just wanted to change it.

Cate

Firstly many congrats KB. 

Secondly, can i be controversial ?   I don't agree with your sup in the way she made you feel but i can understand her point. You can have it all but at a price and many women seem to me to nearly kill themselves in trying.  When kids come along the main childcare does typically impact on the mother.. even if its just 51% of it. So her reaction is undoubtedly her fear that maybe your potential will be impacted by having kids.  I think in her apology she recognised the effect of her reaction but I think it was well intended. She seems to want you to fulfill your potential without wearing yourself into the ground.  You seem to have a great relationship with your sup.. and lovely that she apologised for her response, that's nice.

You could, of course, time your child reading around your Professorship then maybe take reduced hours.. for the same money ... sorted ;-)   

Chuff  

I changed my name and I got a bit of stick but I wanted to too cate :-)

I think you have a point Chuff, but I don't think its the supervisor's role to bring that up, no other boss in any other situation would dream of telling you what you can and can't do in your personal life. Plus I think most women are aware of the compromises we may have to make as a result of choices, but if you asked me to give up my PhD or give up living with my hubs, I know which one I'd choose (the PhD - even if he doesn't do the washing up)

======= Date Modified 11 Jan 2011 22:06:13 =======
I wonder how old your supervisors are? I mean those who are grumpy about getting married. Congratulations Keanbean, that is great news and you must be feeling so happy right now!!! There are always people who see the negative side of everything but don't let that get you down.

I guess with the feminism arguments-well a fair few older feminists fought really hard for women to have a choice today-and as with men that choice should include ALL options. Feminism has not won any points if it means that women have to say 'no' to marriage, relationships or partnerships and put off having children (if they want them) in order to establish a career. If choice means 'either' 'or'-marriage and kids versus stellar career- then feminism has given us a really limited model to operate from. Thankfully, choice means just that-from the full spectrum of opportunities.

There are plenty of women who have managed fabulous careers and have still had partners and families, partners and families who have flourished. As , of course, there are those who haven't for a variety of reasons; life is pretty complicated and choices sometimes have unforseen and unfortunate consequences. I think that we need to honour those feminists who did fight hard and had to give up some options in order to really realise their dreams and win that fight and thank them for the choices that we have today. But we do live and operate in a very different milleiu today as well-thankfully. One that has been made possible by the battles those older feminists fought, but one that offers much more to women-or women in many cultures anyway. One that means you can have a partner and children and a career even if it is a bit of a juggling act at times.

Congratulations again...much happiness, luck and love and a successful Phd to you Keanbean(gift)

Hey! Chuff- I don't see that as being controversial at all. I completely understand- someone's career may well be affected by having kids, and possibly for that reason not fulfill their 'potential' career-wise. And who's to say what will happen- some people manage to balance it all and others don't quite so well. I was just miffed that that was her first response instead of even pretending to be pleased for me! It wouldn't have hurt her to say congrats....well clearly it would have done apparently! I am really serious about my career and she knows that- I'm disappointed that she thinks I would let it slip just because I have a man in my life! For info, she is around 50, single, and doesn't do children! Best, KB

Congratulations Keenbean! You must feel like on top of the world!

Naah, nevermind your sup. It's totally none of her business to question a personal decision you made.

She might appear concerned with you living up to your potential.....on the other hand, as a supervisor, she might be more concerned with not having a phd dropout.

If she were indeed a feminist, she would praise you for your courage to have the phd and be in a serious, realllly serious relationship at the same time.

;-)