Hi all,

Just wondered if anyone is experiencing anything similar?

I'm working as part of a team within an well funded academic department. There are at least two members of staff who are on my team who keep pointing out to people 'oh your only a student' or within meetings to other people 'here's our student' (emphasis on student).

There is one particular member of staff (she's a few years old than me- I'm 28) who is receiving pressure from the project leads about doing a PhD so that she can assume more managerial positions and responsibilities.

I've been here for nearly three years now, and she STILL points out that I'm a student. I'm fully aware of my status as a student! Anyway, it's coming off in such a way that she's using it to put me down etc- and it's driving me insane!!

There has been other problems with this member of staff ie, undermining my work in front of other people, excluding me from publications when she's directly copied from my work, deciding to take my desk without asking whilst I was away with fieldwork and concentrating on my student status within meetings and other things.


Maybe it's the J word coming into play here (I'll obtain my PhD in 3+years, I have no real committments- she has two young children etc etc), although, I've immediately kept my supervisors informed of the above, but it doesn't make it any easier when I'm trying to finish this blimen PhD off!

Sorry rant over! It's just making me feel really annoyed and grumpy over particular staff members attitudes :(

I don't know how much this will help but I have not considered myself a student since I completed my first degree. UNIs are now businesses and I see myself as a client if I'm bringing an income in. I expect respect and I give it.

I can't see to find anything in your post that you have done anything about this. Can you get a meeting organised between the two of you and explain you arn't happy and see what can be done?

======= Date Modified 13 May 2009 20:23:43 =======
I haven't experience anything quite as bad as you seem to have pineapple but I definitely know what you mean! I nearly got turned away from a workshop on academic writing (v. important to me this year!) because I was 'only a postgrad'. I have been lecturing part-time for four years now so I am 'staff' too. There are plenty of part-time lecturers here who don't have/aren't doing PhDs and I guarantee they wouldn't be grilled about the fact that they are 'only part-time staff'. Also there are plenty of full-timer lecturers who are still doing their PhDs - are they not technically students? - and of course they wouldn't be grilled about it either. It's a bit weird that you are looked down upon for studying full-time when it's such a massive undertaking... Grrrr... Anyway I threw a strop and got into the workshop no prob :-) Maybe you should do the same ;-)

======= Date Modified 13 May 2009 22:59:23 =======
The strop approach obviously worked!! ;-)



Shame so many people get to breaking point before they decide to strop - then it's amazing how quick the change around is and you just wonder why you never said somethig earlier :$

Thanks for your replies! I've brought some of it up with my supervisor (ie moving desk without asking and leaving out of publications)- it's kind of hard to prove though! She tends to say things like X is only a student to people in passing (ie not my supervisors) which is the main thing that gets on my nerves a lot of the time. This particualar member of staff has trod on other peoples toes as well (ie leaving STAFF out of publications) so it's not just me! I don't trust her at all. My PhD is integrated into the teams bigger project and I was brought on as a student to sort and help out with the bigger project (I developed my PhD out of it). I attend meetings etc for the rest of the team so I'm pretty much a member of staff, but not in the offical sense!

At our uni, I'm not allowed to attend workshops etc (Excel, word training etc etc) as I'm not a member of staff. I'm only allowed to attend workshops that are open to students. At other unis, however, this isn't a problem!! My supervisor thinks its very silly! I could pull a wobbly with the uni! lol would be interesting to see how that works out!

Strange how people get so caught up with a student status. Anyway, I'm just concentrating on getting my PhD so I can finally leave this mess and apply for post doc jobs- something this particular member of staff cannot do! ;-)

Hey,
On the subject of staff versus student training there may be a mechanism of getting around this. At my University (in London, Russell Group) students aren't generally allowed to go on staff training courses, however if you're prepared to put up a deposit (e.g. a cheque that will only be cashed if you don't attend) they'll let you go. It's more about the department being concerned about wasting their money than anything else, as they get charged if you don't turn up.
So it might be worth investigating this one further...,

======= Date Modified 14 May 2009 13:18:29 =======
======= Date Modified 14 May 2009 13:17:48 =======
Sounds to me like you're insecure about the label student and are being oversensitive. I was called the 'young one' (and variations thereof) by both my supervisors and postdocs. Even if you think the term 'student' is being applied in a derogatory fashion, the fact is that you ARE a student. So.. get over it!

Tad harsh supergenius! I don't think that anyone here knows the posters well enough to make a judgement call about their perceived insecurities. Play nice now.. ;-)

Well 'hypothesis', a lot of PhD students come here with all kinds of grievances. The poster will tend to have one perspective on what their perceived problems are, and others reading them may have another perspective. I'm not being deliberately harsh, just honest. I know what hostility and bullying in the workplace is because I've experienced it, and it's just my honest opinion that being called a 'student' doesn't register on the hostility-scale. I'm sure a lot of us will, in a few years time, call students in the department 'students', and will hope no offense is caused and that it's not perceived as hostility. It will also be a part of our jobs to criticise others work, and we'll hope it's not perceived as 'undermining' their work 'in front of others'. And so on. My best advice for most students is to just grow a thick skin.

No being called a 'student' is not in itself such a bad thing, but it does to an extent undermine the 'student' themselves, the implication being that there opinion is of less worth (that being subjective) than a 'real' academic. Today I met an academic at another Uni without a PhD (he was also only young; probably mid-thirties); he was appalled that I could be treated as a student given that despite his hefty publication record I am at least if not more qualified than him.

Furthermore, I think referring to someone as a student is often part of a wider culture of academic hierarchism. My dept is one of those that firmly believes PhDers are still students despite the fact that most of us teach - in fact they often treat undergrads more favourably than us as they see the more often! There is endemic maltreatment of PhDers from staff that goes to a deeper level than calling us 'students' (harrassment (sexual), gossiping (extremely malicious) and rumour spreading that undermines the status of PhDers (staff spread a completely false rumour that a PhD who teaches had sex with a student in a Uni building)); but this goes hand-in-hand with our status as students. If staff see us as distinct from, and distinctly less than, them they do not see it as a problem to mistreat PhDers.

It is sad to say, but yes, staff can be very unprofessional, e.g. bad-mouthing their students, gossiping etc. Although I understand that I am a student and thus my standing/position within the university is different, in the end, I want to be seen as a peer by fellow students and by the members of staff. For some people (esp. staff) it is not possible to see how one has progressed from UG to PhD and finally Dr/postdoc and they will always treat one slightly like a student. Because some cannot move/upgrade others in their perception from one pigeonhole to another (lets say PhD student to postdoc), I believe it is important to move institutions, to be able to completely reposition yourself and make a new impression. Having said that, I think, it can be useful to treat others as oneself wants to be treated, i.e. my sup is actually "just" a peer, meaning he/she will have an opinion on my work, but one should not overrate his/her opinion over one's own. Subtle sometimes does it. Do you guys know what I mean?

I feel a PhDer is still a student, and is what most of them are called. I am not sure what else you would call them or describe them as? I think the hostility is nasty, but conversely maybe there is a little over-sensitivity from the OP about what is a fairly innocuous term.

As a post doc I am not termed a "faculty member" and am excluded from lots of the stuff lecturers and readers and profs are. Its just the nature of the beast.

Have you told them it upsets you and for them not to do it? What would you rather be called? Would you be offended by "postgrad" (as that mixes you up with MSc students)? or a researcher (some of who may only have BScs?). I guess its hard to know what will be acceptable without having that thrashed out at some level.

I agree with the point sleepyhead makes that academics are very heirarchical. But isn't that also what the OP is playing into and supporting? The idea that "students" are somehow classed as a lesser entitity in some way?

Interesting thoughts here. I would argue that the term "student" is applicable even at the PhD level: it implies you are being taught, which is correct. At the PhD level all of us are, essentially, academics or scientists-in-training. The implication that certain staff may treat their PhD charges as sub standard (academically) is indeed nothing more than gross unprofessionalis. I consider myself as a member of the academic team, providing tutorial assistance where required and am treated as such. Perhaps I have been luckier than most in a set of exceptionally professional and understanding supervisory staff. Go them! (up)

Hmmm.. I am the youngest in the group of PhDs in our dept (about 40 people across 5 yrs). I always consider myself a student. In fact when outside my sup has sometimes introduced me as her colleague and somehow it felt weird. The other day she intro-ed me as her new PhD student to an important person who's also wayyyy older than me, and explained what I'm researching, and I spoke too and I liked that perfectly well. I know I am a student for I am doing a degree and I am learning and I'm perfectly fine with that!! :-)

However, situations and individual opinions may differ..

Hmmm.. I am the youngest in the group of PhDs in our dept (about 40 people across 5 yrs). I always consider myself a student. In fact when outside my sup has sometimes introduced me as her colleague and somehow it felt weird. The other day she intro-ed me as her new PhD student to an important person who's also wayyyy older than me, and explained what I'm researching, and I spoke too and I liked that perfectly well. I know I am a student for I am doing a degree and I am learning and I'm perfectly fine with that!! :-)

However, situations and individual opinions may differ..