======= Date Modified 08 Nov 2011 08:33:36 =======
Hi All,

I work in an office with a high number of overseas students (in this case non-UK is overseas) many (pretty much all) of whom have English as their second language. I often help to correct their written work when they ask me too and have no problem with doing so, most of them then take my corrections on board and I can tell they are improving with their English. I am not a naturally talented linguist and the idea of a PhD in a foreign language would for me be nigh on impossible.

Is there a point though where students should be producing work without it all being read through and being corrected by a native speaker? I am undecided on this and thought it would make a good discussion. Not the two arguments that follow are not my view (I am undecided) they are to give two sides to the debate and get discussion started. I suppose this also applies to native speakers with poor skills in their own language.

One argument is that if you receive a PhD from a UK university and it goes on your CV, a future employer would expect for you to be able to complete written (in the language of the country the PhD is taken in) reports to a high standard. Is this ability to communicate not a requirement for a PhD? If you can't write to a fairly high standard then you do not deserve the PhD.

The other argument is that the PhD is awarded for the critical thinking behind it. So long as you can put your views across in a broadly understandable way (after say heavy correction by a native/better local language speaker) then it doesn't matter.

What does everyone think? How good/bad should the language abilities of a PhD student have to be?

Hi Screamingaddabs,

Universities have strict entry requirements about English language. Obviously they want to ensure that students can understand lectures and produce good quality papers. In my uni there are academic language courses that PGs can attend, although I don't think that you can learn very much in six weeks or so.

Personally I think that there is never a point when a non-native speaker can write an article and submit it to a magazine without having it proof-read by a native speaker. I know a few Lecturers whose first language is not English, and definitely they get their manuscripts proof-read before they publish them.

As a non-native speaker myself, I can say that my writing has improved a lot since I first started studying in the UK. Nonetheless, there will always be something that need to be ironed out I am afraid.

I taught my native language as a foreign language, and I can say the same for my former students. Even the best and most accurate ones needed help when it was down to writing official letters/ reports etc. Some of them had excellent language skills, but the every-day use of language is one thing, academic writing quite another.

I was born and bred in England but ANYTHING that is going to be marked, or published I will get someone else to proof read first. Hopefully, the people you are helping will need large scale correction less and less but, because English is a very complex language compared to most others, I would say that any non-native speaker should get their work read and corrected no matter how good they are at the language.

If a PhD student can communicate their subject in the lab/office/conference then their language ability I think is proven.
A future employer would expect them to be able to talk with their colleagues and be understood. By the time they've got through PhD their writing ability should be good enough for most work situations.

I don't think even English born speakers are ever at a point where they also don't benefit from someone checking their written work - especially as there is the danger to write how you speak which is not how you write for publication. So in some ways you are teaching your fellow students good habits on getting a second opinion, and it is great for them that they have you to help.

I agree with what the others have said. I have lived and worked in Italy for almost 15 years and I speak and write Italian every day. I also write academic articles in Italian - and I ALWAYS get them checked before submission!

I envy you timefortea! I want Pizza on the piazza at Lake Garda *sigh*.

I think that if they're understanding of the subject is there then that's fine. I do think they should be using a university proofreading service though! My hubs is dyslexic and without my extensive proofreading, his thesis would have been unreadable. Having said that I do think language is a major issue in universities. I teach a range of groups and some of them have barely any english. I've talked with them individually about their understanding of my teaching, I even supervise one overseas student, and I said (slowly), "I need to talk to you abour your dissertation" - blank face - "dissertation" - blank face (looks to her friend) "d i s s e r t a t i o n" - blank face, "project?"....... Now they apparenlty have been through the english language tests, but they really struggle. I think they're fine with the written word because they put it all through tranlations, but can't keep up with lectures etc. - that's undergrads though, not PhDs.

I think I am starting to side with the idea that if they can communicate effectively with their research group then their language skills are good enough. I tend to agree that virtually no one can submit a paper without it being looked over by someone else for the spelling and grammar. I suppose a good question is - how do you decide the level of language ability required? What is the level of "able to communicate with research group for instance". It would be interesting to see how this varied from nation to nation too. One thing I do know is that I have a lot of admiration for people who manage it, especially if they learnt the new language later in life.

======= Date Modified 08 Nov 2011 17:40:34 =======
I think there is a huge gulf in levels of English among non-English speakers studying PhDs here. There are people whose English just needs a tweak for minor grammar errors and then what Sneaks is describing. I think some institutions have been admitting PhD students without a good enough score in the writing elements (apparently 6.5 IELTS in writing is the absolute minimum to give the student a fighting chance of finishing on time) but also there's a lot of allegations of fraud around English testing globally so some of it isn't the universities' fault.