Hello all,

This is an odd topic to post about, however it's something that has been affecting me over the past few months. I'm a second year part-time PhD student and started Jan 2011. I have almost always met deadlines, worked as hard as I could and often get good to very good feedback. I normally get things right by the second draft which I know is very fortunate. There are of course times when my feedback is mediocre and that gives me a push to better my work! I have recently completed a presentation on my research and received very good feedback from the audience. The Head of PhD also gave good feedback with suggestions on where I can improve my performance. I guess my point is, I'm doing well and get on with my supervisors (only VERY rarely receive a snide comment), yet feel very bad about any or all corrections that I get back. I know this is a large part of the PhD and I do not think I'm perfect, yet perfectionism seems to distort my view a lot. I really beat myself up, even if things are very good, I want people to say excellent. I think striving to be better is good, however this mind set isn't!

I have always been a student who HAD to have a set grade e.g. This performance is an A or a B etc to tell myself I am doing well. I am finding it almost impossible to see how well or not well I am doing for the PhD. I have received positive comments from my supervisors and am on track with my PhD plan. I set myself daily, weekly and monthly plans so I know what work has to be done and when it has to be done by. Currently, I have submitted two large pieces of work so am waiting for them to be returned. I feel very guilty or think I am not trying my best if I have any down time due to this.

I also work part time in a very busy institute with a perfectionist manager. I know how well I am doing by her feedback and I think I'm trying to find the same in my PhD!

I understand this post raises very little cause for concern and I feel bad even posting it as some individuals seem to have a real cause for posting a message like this. I guess I just need some advice on how to manage this as I very rarely see other PhD students due to work and testing off-site a lot!

I need to be able to accept this process I guess?

Hi there,

I completely understand how you feel - I'm similarly perfectionist - but I think you just have to accept that a PhD is research, and the big picture is what's important. If you are on the right track and making progress, then that has to be 'enough'. There is no 'A' to validate your work, and inevitable constructive criticism has to be taken as such: the negative comments do not mean that you are not trying hard enough or that your supervisors think you are stupid. They just want to make your work even better. This is the nature of academia and the PhD process - you have to become good enough at your subject that you can give it the seal of approval (when you no longer have a supervisor to do so).

I have to remind myself this a lot. Like you, I always want my work to be as good as possible and I can beat myself up over silly errors. But, I think being aware of your perfectionism is an important part of getting past it. Try to remind yourself that you set standards so high that you can't constantly meet them. :-)

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Hi Psychbraniac, Ive found that the PhD is as much about process as it is about product. The final product is important mainly in that it measures your progress as an independent researcher and it is the final outcome of rigorous and replicable academic and methodological processes. (As well as this it does make a small contribution to knowledge in the field).

Thus, you are working towards being an independent and autonomous researcher. Not a research student with a supervisor but an independent researcher. So the products or the research you produce may be excellent yet still not receive awards or much acknowledgement. Sometimes they will receive quite fierce criticism (from people who do not follow your beliefs or believe in a different model, etc), even if they are very good in and of themselves. No one will award you an A-and research awards are rare as well. Just getting something published in a good journal is like an 'A' but even then many people outside of research just go 'oh really, great' in a flat tone or simply don't comment at all because they have no real idea about how hard it is to do this and how much work goes into this sort of thing. If you are not self reliant regarding this sort of thing, then it would be very easy to stop doing it through lack of feedback or positive affirmation from friends and colleagues. (I'm making out that people are awful about it-they are not, but academic journals and research are really outside the scope of many people's real lives and they don't see them as really contributing to society, because they don't understand knowledge yet as a being a viable commodity or contribution or a gift of service, in the way that making a physical thing is or volunteering your time in a homeless shelter, etc).

You do have to work on becoming more intrinsically focused with regard to how things are going. By this I mean, self reliant...because to be independent in this regard means accepting that you believe in your own work and methodologies and will continue to work and improve even if nobody gives you much positive feedback. But it isn't easy changing that mindset and sometimes it is just a matter of being really resilient and toughing it out. Then when acknowledgements do come occasionally from peers, family or other researchers, they are all the sweeter.

You are very lucky in your workplace, in that your manager provides constant feedback and affirmation. Not all managers do this. Maybe (to go back to the academic issue) you could work out your own internal feedback and reward system-whereby if you finish your target academic chore on time and meet a deadline, then you reward yourself with some fun thing or pleasant activity or tiny gift. And there is a flip side to perfectionism that is highly positive and this is that is that you will strive to bring out an excellent thesis or product-so that is something to be really proud of.(gift)

Hello Pjlu,

Thank you ever so much for your reply. From reading your post, I really do need to shift my mindset and focus on 'becoming an independent researcher'. I think part of my problem is that I have been in education since the age of 4 (coming up to 26 now) with no true break from it so I am *very* focused on receiving feedback/a grade as I have done on many of the occasions before. I was warned by a very close friend that this is not something that happens on the PhD (I.e. given a grade) which did prepare me a little. Even before I started the PhD, I completed a PG (Cert) alongside full time work in the NHS and this was 2 weeks after submitting my MSc dissertation so I haven't had too much time for reflection (which I feel is very much needed at the moment).

I see your point about publications. I have had 2 conference presentations so far with a third in the Summer. Then I'll be working towards writing up my work for journal publication. I do see this as something to work towards and something to strive for. My supervisors are very keen to get a journal publication for me as well. I know or at least think I know, this is something I really need for when I finish the PhD and wish to get a lecturer post. My part time job is a course tutor on a postgraduate course at the University which I have been doing for 14 months so far and thus allows me to teach, prepare workshops, marking, interviewing, and work on handbooks/timetables. I am very lucky to have this opportunity as I hope it will help me acquire a post post-PhD. Anyway, back to publications, I see this as something that will act as affirmation for me, even if individuals in academia are the only ones to see or value it.

Taking criticism is something I'm really working on. I could and can always take it when it is a general piece of work, however find it hard not to take comments too much to heart when it's all my own work in the PhD. I am never defensive about it but sometimes take comments too much to heart when I really shouldn't.

Yes, I do believe in my work for the most part and am really working on how I explain it to others. I am apparently OK at doing this but often forget that sometimes I need to give more detail on certain things as people won't know the whole picture as they haven't been reading into it as much as I have.

The reward system does sound good! I think all too often I complete something, totally devalue that and then work on the next thing on the to do list. I am currently taking a week off from the PhD as I believe we can take up to 4 weeks a year off and I haven't taken any time off since January (I have from work!). This is really helping me to evaluate things and what I want from the PhD. On the whole, I am really enjoying it and am making progress. Sometimes I can see through the perfectionism and actually value what I am doing. After all, my parents or family have never been pushy and it is for myself that I have done these various qualifications.

Yes, that is very true! Having perfectionist tendencies or standards does help when it comes to certain tasks in the PhD. I have found I really enjoy writing up and seeing how that comes together when you invest a good amount of time and precision into it. I do not have a perfect writing style, however this is something I see as a challenge to better and work hard on.

Thank you again for your response - it really has given me a few things to think about and reflection on.

I can relate to your post, even if the details are different (I'm less grade oriented, and am not really hung up on negative feedback on documents, but I am a perfectionist who can't really turn something in until I feel like it is perfect, so deadlines are my problem!)

In any case, I would recommend a change of mindset. It has worked for me. You really do have to make the process, not the product or the outcome, your focus. Working on a chapter? Tune out the outside/external "structure" of deadlines/grades/feedback/PhD award or whatever, and think of it as you and the idea of the chapter. The fun of making your idea come through clearly; the excitement of seeing the word counts or pages or whatever move forward (not "the finish line" so much). Think about how great it is that life has allowed you to explore this idea, and think about how much fun or intellectual satisfaction you are getting. I even think of things historically, or timelessly -- kind of fun to be engaged in a "conversation" with people who've gone before and explore the ideas I'm into; fun to think that some day, maybe, someone will find something I've written to be very helpful (my dissertation took an exciting twist when I found an article from 1943 . . .) In other words, you have to take it hour by hour, and it really can get almost fun, even if it is hard.

I started to figure this out by working with a variety of "writing" advice books and "mindfulness" books (and books on tape), and started to realize that they were both kind of saying the same thing. Hemingway didn't write novels; he wrote 500 words every day. Some of the mindfulness stuff I'd recommend are Full Catastrophe Living and Wherever you Go There You Are by Jon Kabat-Zinn -- the first is full of scientific information from his clinic, if logical stuff helps you (it does me) and the second are short little "essays," more poetic and inspirational. I also have (on audio books) Mindfulness by Mark Williams et al; and Getting Unstuck by Pema Chodron (a recorded lecture or series of lectures; kind of informal). I have found all of them helpful, and helpful together. I have not been terribly disciplined; I meditate and do some breathing exercises etc. but not daily yet. But I have found it very centering. I think I will come away from the PhD with some good research in my field, but I have "grown" as a person because I found the mindfulness stuff as part of my effort to "solve" my struggles with "perfectionism." It's not a magic bullet; it is really just a way of learning (and relearning hourly) how to stay in the now and enjoy what you are doing and where you are. Ironically, the "long term" work seems to get done better, faster, etc. once I changed my focus to the immediate. I mean, I still plan, etc., and think ahead. But I try to stay in the moment and enjoy the planning, instead of stressing about a product 90 days from now, or whatever.

I'm not describing this well; but it's kind of ineffable. But I'm very glad that the PhD forced me into trying to address one problem (my perfectionism against a limited time for the PhD), and over the course of the last year or so I've found the mindfulness stuff to have been life-altering in a way that goes far beyond the practicalities of the Phd or the details of my research.

A very interesting post, Bejasus. Thanks a lot for sharing your insights. I'm going to look into the books/tapes your recommend. I need something, anything to lower the stress levels - and I'm already exercising and eating well. :-s

Bejasus, thank you for your post. It is always interesting to hear how perfectionism affects individuals in different ways. I always have to meet deadlines or I feel like a piece of work is no longer as good as it could have been due to being late.

I think the mindfulness and being in the here and now suggestions are very good. I think I certainly do feel better when I'm only thinking about the day ahead and not worrying about the next few days or weeks for example. Thank you for letting me know about the books or tapes I can look into, very helpful indeed. It sounds like they have really helped you and I'm hoping they will do the same for me!

Wow, PsychBrainiac - you sound so much like me it's scary!!! I am also a complete perfectionist, and without definite 'grades' to aim for, I often found myself struggling throughout my PhD. Having said that, my biggest problem is not actually perfectionism, but lack of self confidence. Therefore I am constantly doubting myself and feel that I can never hand in any work that is short of perfection, because I am convinced that my supervisors will hate it anyway, so imagine how they'd react to work that I felt wasn't the best I could do...!!

My supervisors have never actually been negative about my work - it's just that they've never been particualrly positive either. Getting an 'ok' from my main supervisor is considered high praise indeed, so I find it hard to gauge what standard my work is at. I had a paper published towards the end of my PhD, and even that didn't make me feel more confident about my work, as the reviewers made some very harsh comments and I always felt that getting it published was some sort of fluke!

Anyway, the point of all this is that you're not alone in having these feelings. I was also isolated from other students during my PhD which didn't help. I found that taking time out to get some perspective occasionally was really helpful - DO NOT feel guilty for having a week off here and there! Everyone needs a break, and it is a good chance to think through all the things you have achieved so far in your PhD and get things organised in your mind. I'm not saying you should spend the entire break thinking about work, but somehow having time away lets you relax and see things more clearly.

To be honest, I'm not sure if it's something that you will be able to conquer completely; for me I feel it is just part of my personality and I'm kind of stuck with it! In fact, I have used it to my advantage and now work in medical communications, where perfectionism is actively encouraged ;-) I think the most important thing, and something which you learn over time, is to decide when you are being a perfectionist for good reason, and when you are picking over something unecessarily and just driving yourself mad. This is something which I think just comes with time, and took me nearly the whole 3.5 years of my PhD to learn, but now I know when to just let something go as it is, and when to be really picky and ensure it is perfect.

Not sure if this mega post has helped in anyway, but wanted to let you know you're not the only one that suffers from this!!

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Many PhDs have a perfectionist mindset and looking back, I was no different.  It even got to the point where because I disagreed with one of my primary supervisor's remark, although I let him have his way in the thesis my first 'corresponding / first author' paper contained a proof of why his observation was incorrect.  It was remarked by my predecessor that it was almost as though I was willing to delay the submission and even risk major corrections to ensure I had as near as possible a technically correct thesis I could feel happy with.  My predecessor said just let him have his way so you can get rid of the thing, receive no more than minor corrections and get your life back. 

That said, the paper followed very quickly as soon as I had data that proved my supervisor wrong.  So the perfectionist tendencies hadn't been knocked out me entirely, however, my need to correct my supervisor was after the fact and not endangering the award of my PhD.

As Bejasus said, you have to make the process work for you during a PhD, this in order to make the final product worthy of a PhD.  What many candidates don't realise is the scale of work involved and the need for structure to your PhD.  Whilst setting targets and deadlines can help give some structure, the main issue is that of designing the experimental or research programme so that you obtain the data that proves or disproves a hypothesis, and thus provides you with that original set of findings that will earn your PhD.

In my case, I set up an arbitrary array (temperature versus speed versus material let's say) in which I tweaked the key variables to gain a matrix of outcomes.  Without that structure, there would not have been a project.

It took me six months at the beginning of the project to adjust from a real world 'final deliverables' mindset (including the need to have clear benchmarks or grades if you like) to an 'in process' mindset if you like, where I realised I had to build up the picture rather than reach the finish line by the quickest route possible.  In essence, it was a marathon, not a sprint. 

If you had PhDs where it was portioned up so that parts were graded, given the ups and down you face during it you'd have good days and bad days and the variation in any grades you'd receive I honestly believe might a more negative effect on the psychology of the candidate. Besides, how can you grade what may be essentially new findings, where it is difficult to compare with equivalent data and the information is new even to your supervisors and peers?

Also, no matter how hard you try, you will never have the perfect document and there will always be something you're not satisfied with.  Keep in mind your supervisors (if they are good supervisors and they appear to be) will guide you towards a document that they will prompt you to submit when it is at it's least damaging, in other words when you have put sufficient work into it to pass with no more than minor corrections but not so overdone that it actually begins to fall apart (i.e. it keeps to the point of being a study of the original hypothesis).  Keep a day-to-day structure to your PhD rather than focussing on an end result that is three to five years away.  If you don't you may very well find yourself feeling the end game is so far away that you feel it is unachievable or you burn yourself out trying to reach that end result without looking after the day-to-day aspects of your project (which also opens you up to criticism of lack of original content).

A PhD is not like any real world project you'll ever encounter. :-)


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Smoobles - Glad I'm not alone! Oh I see, it does sound like your perfectionism affects you in a different way. I often find that I have a lot of anxiety around making something perfect as quickly as possible which means I continue to work (sometimes without a break) at a fast pace until it is. This does reduce my anxiety, however when I am finished, I get hit by anxiety again! I am working on controlling this at the moment.

I am the same! I often get 'good' or may be rarely I'll get a 'very good' but then wonder why the praise isn't more. I don't need praise to work however it does always give me a huge boost if it is there. Congrats on getting the paper published! I think I would have been the same as you were in that situation. I would have focused on the comments of the reviewers and perhaps allow that to take my focus away from the fact the paper was published!

Thank you. I have only been working a little over the last few weeks as I'm waiting for my work to come back from my supervisors but do feel better about taking it slow for a little while. I start testing next week for my second experiment so hoping that will allow me to feel more productive!

Ah, how excellent for you. I'm so happy to hear that you have lived the PhD experience and come out the other side with a good job. That is excellent advice. I really do need to be more selective with what I am being perfectionist over and seeing if it is really necessary. I will definitely take that forward from someone who has experienced what I am experiencing at the moment!

Your post has helped me a lot! I think just knowing that I'm not alone in feeling this way is a massive help so thank you so much for posting :-)

Ian - It is very interesting to hear about your PhD experience and the first published paper. I think at the moment (even though I am getting better!) I will accept what my supervisors say/ask, however I have already 'proven them wrong' so to speak, twice. The supervisor-supervisee relationship is one I'm coming to terms with. I always meet with both of my supervisors and often find it exhausting to please them both for the whole hour. They often do just let me get on with it though which is good as I don't feel like I'm not able to make decisions on my own.

My PhD structure has been set out from the beginning and I had to make a 5 year plan from the very beginning so I always have some direction. I know other students in my heat who still didn't have this in place by the end of the first year. I wouldn't have been able to do that without worrying frantically all the time.

My PhD consists of six experiments with four of them being modified and adjusted based on the previous one. The other two are working with different populations to allow the project to tell the whole story. I have seen this as extremely important to keep in mind and it works very well.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with me! If I were a full time student, I would be around 10 months in at this point. I need to take a step back and see what I have completed and where I am heading. I am very realistic about the amount of years it will take, however sometimes slip into fast forward mode which isn't helpful!

Excellent point about the grading system - I hadn't thought of it like that! I certainly do not miss the competitive streak in people who compare grades all the time.

Yes, I am confident that my supervisors will be able to guide me well towards a finalised document and we are of course aiming for minor corrections at worst. My second supervisor is absolutely fantastic in telling me what parts of my writing are good and which areas need attention. This has been a growing process of the first 16 months of my PhD.

As others have noted, I need to be in the here and now more. Focusing on the day to day structure is certainly less stressful and allows me to keep in the moment. I have always been rushing towards a goal, however feel I can afford to take it a little slower here and not rush to the end. I am happy where I am which is a big bonus.

Thank you so much for your reply! Since I originally posted this thread, my MSc work and first PhD experiment have been accepted as a paper presentation at an International conference. I have also been awarded an attendance bursary from the British Psychological Society. Both of these achievements have given me a reality check that I am on the right lines!