======= Date Modified 25 Jun 2011 22:43:42 =======
======= Date Modified 25 Jun 2011 22:42:18 =======
Well I am close to submitting my PhD and to be honest it has been a horrible experience that I wish I never went through. Mostly because of my supervisor I might add, who was and still is well just a terrible supervisor. Anyway I have been trying to look for work for the last few months and I have to say that I have found that my PhD is more of a hindrance than a help for the majority of the jobs I have applied for. My PhD is in experimental physics I might add. Anyway every graduate level job I apply for I get a reply that I am over qualified, and every job that I apply for requiring experience gives me a reply that I have not got enough experience. There is no shortage of postdocs looking for jobs, in fact I would say the job market is flooded with postdocs with experience, which makes it a lot harder for new PhD graduates. Things are so bad that I cannot even get a part time or temporary job as no one will touch me because of my qualifications. I have now deleted my PhD from my CV for job applications which require graduate or lower qualifications, since I believe its the only way I have any sort of chance. I have an interview soon for a secondary school teacher training course, as this seems to me the best option, even still the competition from first degree graduates, with more experience in secondary school teaching, means this is going to be hard to get accepted onto this course.
All in all the PhD was a complete waste of time for me, and I have a feeling that I have wasted the last 9 years studying physics and I will end up being a postman or something like that.
Sorry to read about your situation Vilee. Hope it improves!
I was wondering what the job market is like for PhD graduates. Is there a fav website or anything where most people look? Are you looking for jobs in a certain area or are you willing to move about giving you more chance to get a job?
Good luck!
I totally get what you mean Vilee as I had a similar experience too though I still enjoyed the research itself and that is what kept me going despite all the other problems I had!!!! Yeah I'm finding the same problems about postdocs too! The market is flooded with experienced postdocs so people who have just finished don't really stand a chance assuming there are posts to apply for which is the other problem in my field! I've hardly seen any recently so have decided to try my luck at temporary teaching posts which have the same problem! Well probably worse as I've less teaching experience than most for reasons I won't go into so there is not much hope there! It's really is tough for people who have just finished. I won't go into it too much as I'll just end up repeating myself!
I haven't tried many posts outside academia as that is where I really want to be though I need to start coming up with a Plan B as I don't know how long I can carry on like this! The problem I find with jobs outside academia is that they don't really stimulate me. I was at an interview for one where I could use my skills in a limited way but it was just to follow a protocol and there was no research involved unless I did it in my own time despite masses of data being collected! Part of me is just stubborn as I think that I went through a lot to get the PhD so I want to use it and I am determined to even if it kills me trying! Mind you I used to think that about getting one and look where it has gone me! I just need to know all the grief was worth it and would like to think it wasn't a waste of time! Only time will tell! How long can I play this game for? Is it just to reassure myself that I'm not that stupid really and that I can get a job which uses my skills and knowledge? Am I trying to prove to myself it was worth it and also I'd love to see the look on my supervisor's face when I tell them I've an academic job so there! There seems to be a lot riding on it!!!!
You shouldn't have to hide your PhD for a teaching course especially at secondary level as they are trying to attract high quality science graduates such as yourself! I think the program is called Teachfirst which is specially designed to get people to teach science as you know they are short of science teachers. I have a friend who has just got a place on a training course for secondary schools. The PhD is a good selling point especially for physics so don't sell yourself short! You're worth it!
But I know what you mean it's demoralising and it feels like we are in limbo not knowing which way to turn and hoping for a job! I'm really hoping things pick up soon! Anyway good luck! (up)
Hey! To be honest, I have always believed that I will benefit from my PhD, but now I'm close to the end I'm less sure of myself. Job opportunities are scarce, even though I'm in an area that is of practical relevance and am prepared to move pretty much anywhere across the UK (dementia stuff!). I suppose I've always believed what my supervisors have told me (you'll be fine, you'll be the exception that makes it through and succeeds) and now I'm so near the end I am beginning to question that. I suppose I won't really know until I've finished my PhD and I'm competing for jobs, but I know from what I've learnt already that it isn't an easy market out there. It's easy to believe that you'll be the one who will make it, but I guess until you're out there competing for jobs you will never know for sure. I've got my fingers crossed that maybe I'll be the exception who makes it past the PhD and gets a post-doc or fellowship or whatever, but I am beginning to realise just how tough things are. Unfortunately having 3 degrees won't necessarily get you a job any more, no matter how relevant your topic is. I hope in 6 months or a year's time I'll be able to report some sort of success story, but right now nothing is at all certain. I don't regret my PhD at the moment, but if years pass and I don't make progress in the research world I'll be pretty devastated. Anyway, for now I've had a few vodkas and probably best leave it at that! Tomorrow I'll be back onto fellowship and viva preparation! Best, KB
======= Date Modified 26 Jun 2011 08:53:04 =======
Hey Vilee,
Just wanted to say I can totally emphasize with your situation. I'm a post viva PhD student currently working through my thesis corrections- hoping to finish my thesis revisions in a few months time.....perhaps slightly unrealistic, but the sooner the better!
I'm also in the same boat- ie hit with the 'over qualified' stick or receiving comments such as 'given your PhD, this post will add little to your research career and I recommend you look for post doc positions', or 'this position is for a junior psychology graduate only', or 'given your expertise, qualifications and experience, I recommend you apply for our senior research posts advertised shortly'........Hard to take, especially as I really need a job!! I was rejected from my employment agency that I used to work for because my qualifications and work experiences are 'too specialised'- whatever that means!
I'm actually moving away from research into something more applied- not a career change as such as I'm still sticking within the same sort of area, . I want to start a professional doctorate in Health Psychology soon, so I'm looking at relevant part time research positions (which I'm struggling to find!) and also four different voluntary positions to build up some one to one experience working with different client groups (external to research projects). I'll probably still apply for clinical psychology training at some point, but given the course seems to have the most insanely competitive admissions component, I don't fancy my chances! Changes within the NHS and reductions in research budgets will probably make my decision for me though :(
I'm also considering completely omitting my four postgraduate courses/degrees for non graduate jobs (support worker, carers etc), but it feels really painful to start deleting all my postgrad qualifications from my CV!
I'll be devastated if I eventually end up working in something completely unrelated or return to admin temping prior to graduating from my undergraduate degree. I wonder if I'll end up as a check out girl in Tescos like my parents predicted when I was just starting secondary school :-(
But, I don't regret my PhD at all. OK, I'm a dress size larger with a few more grey hairs, but I'm far more confident (despite how I may appear online) and learnt loads about myself and developed expertise in my thesis subject. oooooo Keenbean- we share some similar research interests ;-)
Best of luck Vilee
Vilee,
I know exactly how you feel and yes, to get into a real world job, I hid my PhD. My situation was compounded by workplace problems during a post-doc at a second Uni. (not my PhD Uni.).
However, in saying that if I had my time over again, I would still do the PhD. It is something I wanted and had to do. It's difficult to explain, however, I had to 'complete the process' and take on a project that would really challenge me. The PhD was just the ticket.
I agree with you hiding your PhD (that seems to be rule of thumb in a world that actually seems to denegrate PhDs), however, I also believe a few years down the road you'll look back and probably be glad you did it. In my case it's a feeling of no regrets. If I hadn't done it, I'd have been wondering 'what if'.
That said everybody is different.
Either way, chin up as it's nearly over. ;-)
I THINK YOUR IMMEDIATE CONCERN ABOUT FINDING A JOB IS SOMEWHAT PREMATURE - AND IT DOES NOT HELP YOU TO EASE THE ANXIETY ONE NATURALLY HAS BEFORE SUBMITTING THE THESIS. THOUGH MINE IS IN A DIFFERENT SUBJECT, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT GETTING THE PhD IS REALLY WHAT MATTERS NOW. SO, I WOULD SUGGEST YOU CLEAN YOUR MIND FROM ALL NEGATIVE THOUGHTS AND TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES (DIFFICULTIES WITH SUPERVISOR, ETC.) AND FOCUS ON WHAT IS AHEAD OF YOU. STILL, IF THIS IS NOT ENOUGH TO HEAL THE PAIN, YES, THE ASSUMPTION HOLDS VALID THAT FINDING A JOB - EVEN ONE BASED ON CONTRACT - WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT. I FINISHED MY PhD FROM A PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITY OF ENGLAND 4 YEARS AGO, AND I MANAGED TO WORK ONLY 20 MONTHS SO FAR. PRESENTLY, I DON'T HAVE A JOB, AND I'M WORKING ON APPLICATIONS FOR RESEARCH GRANTS. THIS IS HOW IT WILL BE, UNLESS YOU'RE EXTREMELY LUCKY. IN A SENSE, IT IS GOOD TO KNOW THAT YOUR PROFESSIONAL CHANCES ARE SEVERELY LIMITED; NOW YOU CAN FOCUS ON FINISHING YOUR THESIS, FREE OF ANY FUTURE ANXIETIES AND EXPECTATIONS.
The situation for PhDs is beyond a joke in most subjects. Even the official line from the universities and governments is that they expect the vast majority of PhD graduates to leave academia and being open about how to effectively think about re-training. At your own expense, naturally.
I also don't think avenues like clinical psychology or graduate medicine are that straightforward. You don't need a PhD but you do need to fit in and be what they are looking for. Everyone knows success stories but to be honest If you have already tried a few times unsuccessfully face it, its probably not going to happen, and I know too many people with PhDs and MScs who keep trying to knock at those doors year after year in the vain hope of getting onto one of those blasted courses. They have just traded one pipe dream for another.
I am one of many that had to leave and am doing a job that is graduate, but really not professional that it needs even an undergrad degree. When I realised what Vilee has so well described I started blaming academics above me. However, I read an article in the Times Higher education supplement which showed how badly PhDers are able to judge their chances. 65% of respondants thought they would be a career academic when there was only a 12% chance of gettting such a post (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=415813).
Lets be honest. We built these traps for ourselves, telling ourselves we are going to be the "one" that makes it, or if we just kept on working hard enough we could win that grant and get a stable job. We do it so we can show those doubters, or those that said we couldn't do it. We are like those X factor contestants, who was convinced that they could be a pop star and that Simon would be sorry when we get knocked out.
We also get into the mindset that we have spent so many years in trying to do academe and if we leave to do something else it was all totally wasted and have come too far to go back. But thats like a gamber in Las Vegas staying on at the table losing more. Its all very well hoping if he just gets onto a winning streak he gets it all back and more, but really the sensible thing is to cut their losses and leave the casino.
In hindsight, I found some of the blogs about leaving academia quite helpful in allowing me to think about what I wanted to do next. What I found really annoying was everone who said they were sure things would be alright and I would find a lectureship soon just keep trying and not to give up. Trying to be helpful but really I needed a wake up call.
Whooaa. Reading this back I realise how much anger there still is. I don't know what I am trying to say Vilee, but just that you aren't the first in feeling that way.
======= Date Modified 26 Jun 2011 22:35:20 =======
======= Date Modified 26 Jun 2011 22:34:36 =======
======= Date Modified 26 Jun 2011 22:33:28 =======
Thanks everyone for your replies so far. I read this article today and it pretty much sums up what I am experiencing
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article14564.html
Probably a lot of people doing PhDs (though not all) have never worked in a job outside academia (aside from something to pay the bills). For those where this is the case I would suggest that perhaps people are thinking that when they turn up at work they should instantly assume a position of high importance/pay/everything else. Unfortunately this will very very rarely be the case. Whilst I am not suggesting anyone take up a graduate position (there's no way you should even consider it) I would say that people need to realise that in industry you need to prove yourself before you get the perks. I realise that doing 3-4 years+ of a PhD feels a lot like you have proved yourself, but PhD work is very different to non-academia, plus non-academics often don't understand what it takes to get a PhD. This may seem unfair, but it is a fact. Hence, don't expect the job you apply for to be all singing and all dancing. What you SHOULD expect (and can ask at interview time) is that there will be opportunities for progression. This is a big thing, especially in smaller companies. It is not unknown for people to go from new employee to being pretty high up the chain in just a year or two. The important thing is that you need to prove you can contribute within the business environment, not just achieve within the academic environment.
I appreciate the above won't help everyone (especially those told they are over qualified) but hopefully those who may think that a non-academic job they are applying for is not going to be challenging enough can see that it is possible to change what your job is very quickly if you show aptitude, without actually changing your job!
Sorry if I'm telling my granny how to suck eggs so to speak.
Adam
Ph.D. is just a waste of time unless you do it in a big group....pleasing your boss and being bastard with your collegues. In any case for personal experience I want just to say to not do any Ph.D. in chemistry at University of Birmingham (UK). I worked really hard...being available to work over weekends as well and now that I need publications out of MY WORK people cannot be bothered to work.
When you choose make sure that people publish, this is my only advice. Chemistry in Birmingham is a waste of time and money for everyone. I am really upset and surprised that none from that University is checking a simple parameter for each lecture: number of student/number of papers each year!!!! It is impossible that people can complete PhD without any publications!!!!
That University should be banned from the educational system simply because its student are not competitive!!!
PostgraduateForum Is a trading name of FindAUniversity Ltd
FindAUniversity Ltd, 77 Sidney St, Sheffield, S1 4RG, UK. Tel +44 (0) 114 268 4940 Fax: +44 (0) 114 268 5766
An active and supportive community.
Support and advice from your peers.
Your postgraduate questions answered.
Use your experience to help others.
Enter your email address below to get started with your forum account
Enter your username below to login to your account
An email has been sent to your email account along with instructions on how to reset your password. If you do not recieve your email, or have any futher problems accessing your account, then please contact our customer support.
or continue as guest
To ensure all features on our website work properly, your computer, tablet or mobile needs to accept cookies. Our cookies don’t store your personal information, but provide us with anonymous information about use of the website and help us recognise you so we can offer you services more relevant to you. For more information please read our privacy policy
Agree Agree