======= Date Modified 13 Dec 2010 16:19:15 =======
Thanks for the advice everyone.

Hmmm, it's a tough situation Coop. I'm sure there will be many on the forum who will disagree with me here, but I'd say if you really want to quit, and you *know* it's not for you, then go. I'm sure you can pull together enough of a lit review and data for a masters so you will get something out of it on paper as such. But if it's already caused depression, and you know you don't want to stay in academia then nothing is worth giving up on the next 2 years of you life. It sounds a bit harsh like that, but really, when you are recovering from depression and still unhappy, unless there is some sort of shift and you suddenly start to love your project, I can't see it getting any better. And the writing up phase is a million times worse, especially when you have supervisors who aren't bothered. I just don't see that your happiness is worth staying on just for the sake of it.
But you have to be sensible about your options too, have a look for graduate courses and schemes that you can apply for, remember there is insane competition for many jobs at the moment and it could be tough getting something.

Good luck in your decision, only you know what is best for you.

Coop, whilst I am yet to begin my PhD, so perhaps am speaking out of turn here, I do feel that you're having a bad case of "looking outside yourself" for answers. In fact, only you can answer the question you're looking for help about here. I wouldn't think too many people would feel comfortable telling you one thing or the other (but many may have useful personal experiences to share).

At the moment I am finishing my master's dissertation, I'm down to editing, and I hate it. I mean I really detest doing it every day. Whilst this is the case I know, within myself, that I want this and that the horror of the next 4 weeks is worth it in the end because I do want to continue on and I do want to begin my PhD in Sept. I guess what I'm getting at is, do you feel that the pain and unhappiness you're feeling right now is "worth" it? Do you need a PhD to do what you want, and if not, do you even 'want' one at all (for whatever reason)?

If you decide that no, you don't want it/need it then the next decision is are you willing to write off the last 2 years to experience and try to move on with your life, or do you feel that you want/need to use what you did to get an Master's? It's not something anyone can SUGGEST I wouldn't think -- although it does seem logical and it may well make this time less of a 'waste' -- but do you WANT it?

I would imagine that plenty of people have spent two, three, four, even ten or more years of their life doing something they didn't want to, and then have changed their direction. You wouldn't be the first or the last in that respect. It's your job as a human being to find your place in life, but you do need to decide what it is you want, rather than what you think is right. I'd go from there.

Good luck :)

i'm in a very similar situation...
i'm finishing the 6th year of my phd (not counting an unofficial year maternity leave).
i really don't like what i'm doing anymore - i did like it when i started. the first three years were smooth. over the past year i've had recurring doubts and am nearly ready to quit. i've managed to surmount them each time. i have talked to my supervisor on numerous occasions and he simply says it's a decision only i can make.
in june, my supervisor said that i couldn't afford to waste any more time and if i had another lull in my writing schedule, then i wouldn't be able to finish on time. now it's been three weeks with nothing done. i'm miserable. i can't take advantage of my "real" life because this hangs over me constantly.
i've over half of the dissertation written. i find rewriting a terribly excruciating. my phd is a very big project. i have much too much data and archival material (it's a historical case study). i think i'm in over my head. how do i know if i can finish? how do i know when i should just quit and move on to something else?

I think many people have been in similar situations, at the moment I hate every minute of my PhD, I can't think why I even began it right now or what I want to do with my life. I've also suffered with depression on and off my whole life and the last year has been pretty bad (I'm also end of 2nd year). The thing that keeps me going is a kind of determination not to quit, that I want to see something through to the end and if I've put so many years into this hell then I'm damned well going to get something out of it at the end. Is it worth it? I don't know for myself and certainly not for you, only you can answer that Coop - nobody can tell you what to do or even really advise you that much. Is it worth carrying on for less time now than you've done already, get the doctorate and move on, or is it better for you to shelve what you've done, see if you can get a masters out of it and then start the next stage sooner.
You don't say how old you are, maybe I'm so bloody minded as I'm already in my 40s and have let a lot of things go - I don't want to do that again - there is nothing worse for me personally than 'what ifs'.
I'm sorry not to be more help, just to say that a lot of people feel very similar at various points in their PhDs, its a hard road and you have to be bloody minded to get through it. Having said that, if you do manage it then noone can take it from you, you've achieved something against the odds and its not just the academic side but also the emotional and mental battle that a PhD entails - its not an easy road, if it was then it would be worthless :-)

What is apparent from your post is that you really are clearly unhappy doing your PhD. You're exactly half way through and, at the risk of sounding contentious, I can tell you that it's only going to get harder from this point onwards. For instance, writing up is hell for even the most motivated and enthusiastic of students. If you're experiencing severe depression because of your work, then, thinking of your health, it is logical to leave. After all, what is more important than health and happiness? Since you don't want to be a researcher, there's little point in training and acquiring the skills to be one. Just bear in mind, and you'll probably already be aware of this, that it is very, very difficult to get on a graduate training scheme. I have friends who have taken second degrees and they're still having no luck finding a job. Having quit your PhD after two years, and with not even a masters to show for it, it is going to need some explaining on your CV.
I'm actually thinking as I type this, but why don't you continue for long enough to acquire sufficient data from submitting a masters or even an mphil? That way, you'll have an advantage over graduates when applying for graduate positions. Increasingly, graduate recruiters are looking for graduates with a masters. That way you'll kill two birds with one stone.

Some say (quite rightly) that no one else can tell you what to do. But if your post represents your honest feelings about the matter, then you've already told us all what you MUST do. As Walmin said, what's more important than health and happiness?

You want to quit, but your scared you will regret it if it hurts your chances of a good career in the future. This is a good point. However, if continuing will genuinely affect you this badly (i.e. soul-crushingly badly), what are the chances that you'll ever regret it? And if you've "never hated a job as much as this", how bad can the alternative be?

I left a job I felt this way about last year. In many ways the 'right' thing (i.e. responsible, sensible etc) to do was stick it out, at least until I'd found a new job, but I just wanted to be happy again. It took a long time to find a suitable position elsewhere and I struggled financially. But it would've taken far more drastic consequences (like having my home repossessed or something) for me to regret abandoning such misery.

Good luck.

Oh my, Coop, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. It seems like you're looking for affirmation from PhD-ers (since you already have it from friends and family) that it's ok for you to quit. If it helps, then it seems a lot of people on here think that it is. For what it's worth, I do to. But in the end, of course it's your responsiblity to decide, and that's what's so difficult.

Try and keep some perspective - of course a PhD is a big deal, but it's not *that* important in the big scheme of things. You won't be a failed human being if you decide to call it a day.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Coop,
I'm sorry to hear this and can empathis with your story. I agree that it sounds like you would like someone to say 'it's ok to stop now'. I also feel this way at the moment, though I have family and friends urging me not to quit. Maybe the experience of a friend of mine will help: She got miserable about 18 months into the PhD so she suspended and got a job. She says try suspending first and see how you go. She was much happier, so she didn't go back to her PhD. She doesn't regret giving the PhD a try, because she learned a lot including that she doesn't want to work in academia. this is really useful information! in a job interview, she explained her reasons for not continuing (she wanted teamwork and to directly make a difference to people). this impressed the interviewers. and then she found a whole lot of people she already knew were suddenly willing to tell her they also had started a PhD and quit after 1 or 2 years. I think if it isn't what you want to do, quitting isn't a failure. protecting your mental and emotional health is just as important as protecting your physical health - it has a big impact on your capacity to work.
I hope this helps.

All I can say is "I hear ya"
I am in my 6th year of a supposed 3yr PhD program and I am struggling. There have been many many many times when I have wanted to walk away.
I guess it all comes to down to why you're doing a PhD and what else you want to do. I want to teach/lecture at uni... and to me a phd is a necessary evil. I don't enjoy the research I'm doing but am sure I could enjoy research in another area (who isn't sick of their own work after 6 yrs?).

There were many nights I cried my eyes out terrified of how much I hated it. And to be totally honest the only thing that kept me going what the feeling of shame I was convinced I would have if I quit. Which is such a cop-out! I think it would have way more brave of me to quit when I was so desperately unhappy. I am weeks away from submitting my thesis.... and I'm terrified. How good a job can you do when you hate what you're doing? I am freaking out that it's not going to be good enough, freaking out that i'll fail the defense and get offered a masters (I would lose my head if that happened). It is extremely difficult to get through the final few weeks of writing when you are in a state of terror... and to be honest I do have some regret that I didn't step away when I seriously started to think about it.

Now, all that being said... I am kind of glad I didn't drop it when the thought first came into my mind. Obviously in a few weeks I will be happy (and drunk).... and hopefully some time away on a beach will refresh my outlook on the whole thing. But I also think if you are feeling this bad about the work you should have a serious sit down with your supervisor.... tell them how you're feeling and hopefully they can shed some light on things and help you out. Who can expect to work on one project for years and not have moments they want to quit and throw the computer out the window?

Good luck... and just make sure you do what's right for you. Realizing a phd and the work that goes with it isn't for you... not a failure. all it means is just that.... the phd route isn't for you.

Hey Coop,
Man - its like you wrote this post about me! I hear you at every point (and posted an equal rant some time ago!). I'm now at the end of a 3 year funded PhD and with no chance of getting any extra money to carry on. I've been toying with the idea of quitting for the last year and whilst a large part of me wishes I had, a long time ago, a tiny part of me recognises how much I have learnt in the time that I've stuck with it.

I had my recent 'I'm gonna quit' episode recently when, in a meeting with my supervisor, I was told that I wasn't good at writing, didn't work smart and didn't have enough to get a PhD. My concern was only that my funding ran out this month and I wanted to discuss a realistic time period in which I MIGHT get a PhD done. Apparently, unless I am prepared to generate another year of debt and work more than the 10-12 hours a day I do now, then what I have isn't good enough. Its amazing what a lot of supervisors dont seem to realise, is that a little support goes a loooooong way and that you by helped you out occasionally does not mean that they are 'spoon feeding' you! (Apologies to all those who have great and helpful supervisors out there!)

Like yourself, it is a gutting thought to throw away all that you've done till now, especially if you have a chance of carrying on for just a bit longer to finish. However, it bugs that crap out of me that everyone (apart, apparently from folks on here :-) seems to tell you what a mistake it is to quit and make you feel even more crap than you probably already do!

Ok, so its not like I have any great answers and certainly nothing that's not already been said in response to your post. But, as you gathered, you're not alone in your rubbish experience. There are lots of folk who are going through such similar pain and each will deal with it differently.

So here is what I have decided to do: like yourself, I had given myself 3.5 years max to get this done (i.e to finish lab work in 3 years and keep 6 months for write up) and now it seems like that will be nowhere near long enough. Although my supervisor thinks I should go on and on till the job is done, I have decided to stick it out for the remaining 6 months and also give myself a little extra on the end. Despite my lab work STILL not working (I know! After 3 years - still no concrete methods to use AND no results!), I have decided to go 3.25 years in the lab and keep 6 for write up. This way, I dont go much further into debt than I had already accounted for, but I also don't throw the towel in before I've tried everything. If its enough for a PhD, great! If not, then no amount of enthusiasm or work on my part is going to change that.

I hope you manage to work out what you WANT to do (rather than what you feel you should do) and have the strength to carry it through. Maybe if you only want to quit, knowing you've given it your best, you could try setting a few time steps by which to get things done (say you decide to stick it out until Xmas and in the next month you have to have had a good look through any data you already have and can see a way forward with the research. That way, by Xmas, you'll either have had a good chance to look at all you have done and consider whether its sufficient to write up as a masters or MPhil or you may find that by going through everything you have, you can see a way forward to completion. However, if by then you are feeling equally down about it, then call it a day). And if you don't manage it, at least you know you've tried your best.

If you want to chat some more just send me a PM. I might not be able to give you a solution, but sometimes its reassuring to be able to rant to someone knowing that you're not going to get the predictable replies you get from work folk, family and friends.

All the best and I hope it goes well (and when you find the solution to all of this, plea

Coop,
Another "I hears ya brother!" to the list ... Will be short - don't worry, you are not alone in your experience (why this has to be the norm for a significant number of people, I don't know!). Between the practical problems of money and the more personal problems of putting major things on hold, it is a minefield. A lot of us are in situations like MJM - in this dilemma because we want to teach at some point and failing to somehow see how this insular exercise prepares you for that but hey, what do we know?
If you decide to stay on, do so under your terms and don't put yourself under pressure (take a years deferral, go part time).
If you decide that you've had enough, fair play and at least you know that at least we understand exactly where you are coming from. But what I would say is that if you do take this course, make sure to look into how you can protect your work already done (you might never know - you may wish to return at some point). Even if its just getting your PC hard drive.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do but please do what you think is right - not what you think others will think of you. And don't be afraid to ask for help - it is only thro' the help of others (this forum included) that the vast majority of us are coping.

Hey Coop,

Sorry to hear your troubles with your PhD. I hope you find a resolution where you are happy. I was motivated to do a science PhD by the following reasons 1: Money was similar to a science based job post degree 2: Career progression is better following PhD 3: I love science. Once i finished I find that actually I love science :) Anyway, my PhD was a pretty miserable experience...politics, crap supervisor contributing to low self esteem etc to the extent that many people in the department where telling me to quit. Given the time frame I had (3 years) I personally felt that once I was over half through (1.5 yrs) I would finish what i started (otherwise would have quit!). I dont believe many people have the experience they expect with their PhD i.e if I knew this was what was involved then I would have not started it! Anyway, maybe you are at a good point just now? Possibly two years and a masters and get out if you do not want to wish to pursue a science/research based career? To be honest I found that write-up of the PhD pretty hard in that it was hard to get up every day and push my-self to write for maybe 14 hours a day..its not the content of data/science it was the mental isolation etc etc which was hard. If you are struggling now then this could perhaps be more difficult in the future. On the other hand, you can grit your teeth, get your PhD done and move on. Statistically, a small % of science PhDs have a career in science but have developed good transferable skills etc and move on to banks and the like. On the other hand, to be honest there are practically zero grad schemes at the moment whatever you want to go into...so is that really a possibility? Maybe a PhD would help in this? Also, even getting a science based jobs without a PhD? Forget even getting a technical job (if based in UK). anyway, id think hard about quitting as you have come so far and are almost on the other side.

p.s coop,
Most people will only develop their projects in the third year (in my limited experience). As most science based PhDs have only 3 years for thier projects this could put you at a considerable advantage in that you could develop the project further than most. PIs are often v.unrealistic about output of positive results and perhaps could explain PIs lack of sympathy. There are many a post-doc in a similar position I would imagine. Anyway, perhaps you have the middle of PhD low that almost every PhD student suffers which will perhaps look different 6-10 months down the line. However, if the PhD is effecting your health,nothing is worth that. Do what you feel best and it will all work ut :) Good luck :)

Last week at work when someone asked me about my Master's thesis (actually about five people did, accompanied by the inevitable eye rolls and small disgusted noises when I say 'no more edits still'), anyway one man said, yes makes you wonder what is the point-why not quit-who needs it.
Well, I've invested around 2 years now on this blessed thing and am only weeks away from completion, so I said this...and said that I wasn't going to stop but I would just go through with the thing.

However, when I was having this water cooler conversation, I realised that I wasn't not quitting because I needed the qualification to realise that I am intelligent or because it is going to make me a better person, I wasn't quitting because I had really finished and just had those bloody final edits and proofing to do.

I've realised that starting a doctorate isn't going to make my life wonderful or justify some of the strange turns and choices I've made. It is not going to make me a better teacher or leader or manager and it isn't going to make me a better or more mature person. That's all my responsibility. What it will give-if and when I choose to do one in the future-is a long term project on a particular topic that will really train my thinking and ability to research in a very specific and academic way-and of course a qualification.

It's a bit like a relationship-when I quit my long-term non live in relationship of 13 years with a former academic late last year, I was really scared about ending it. Part of the reason was that I had invested 13 years of my life and to walk away with absolutely nothing seemed like admitted absolute failure. However, my god, I am so glad now that I did. So it was 13 years of my life- I learned things-he learned things-but it was not what I wanted ultimately and it became extremely toxic.

You really have to do what is right for you and throw away all of the usual assumptions and justifications we make or load onto things. I'm finishing my Masters because I want to-I'm almost there and then I am moving onto other things. I'm taking a break from further doctoral studies likewise because I want to and no longer need to have this dream to make me feel good about myself. I left a sour and stagnant relationship because it was unhealthy for both people within the relationship. But this does not mean that I think Phd's are bad or crap or whatever, or relationships, or that people who don't finish them are failures-it is all down to personal choice. No one else can make those decisions for us. Hope you get enough distance and appropriate support to make the right choices for you. And when you do-you don't need to justify them to others nor are you obliged to feel as if you are a failure-whatever. Too much erroneous judgement happens in this world...