Hi i have a few questsions.

Why do I have to submit 2 referance forms at the same time as my CV? What if my application is weak then pestering my refarees wouldnt have been needed. I would have thought it would make more sence to apply then the university says x CV is good so requests referances then good referances would get interviews.

It feels like I am pestering my referances every time I apply to a PhD. How many universitys is normal to apply to?

Also what do you do if you only have 1 good refaree. I have my MSc supervisor and a lecturer that I dont think remembers me (not even sure if he sent off the one i gave him). I had a tendancy to keep myself to myself so I dont really have another contact.

I don't know why many universities insist in having two written references included in applications, rather than just taking up references contact details. The way it is done now makes applications so much more difficult but that is just the way it is!

I made four aapplications which I think is a reasonable number - any more and I think my referees might have started to get annoyed.

If you only have one referee that is obviously a problem. Ask other lecturers/tutors, I have found that they are generally helpful and if they really feel that they don't know you well enough to provide a reference they will just say so. If you really only have one reference from universiy could you not use a reference from a job you have done in the past? Or an undergraduate lecturer/tutor. I have used undergraduate lecturers as referees and it hasn't caused a problem in terms of getting interviews/being accepted for PhDs.

Good luck with the applications!

I understand where you are coming from, contacting your referees can make you feel uncomfortable - especially if the most your relationship extends to a nod of the head when you pass them on the street. The question as to whether or not they are neccesary is redundent as almost all places ask for them, in my opinion it is a clever a way of cutting down the number of applicants. I say this because I expect every supervisor to give their students a cracking reference.

The reality is that writing a reference is part of their job. This is your future, it is reasonable to expect someone to copy and paste on a few forms for a 3 year studentship. My advice is to do whatever it takes to get it done, this is important.

Make it easy for them: I wrote them a reference template and said to use it if they are strapped for time. Even if they don't use it, its a good gesture of goodwill, you can also load it with examples of things that you've done that they can't remember.

Hope this helps

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Well the thing is most university's have their own reference form (a number of which are pdf or have stupid unrespectable boxes in word). Should I ignore these?


4 applications?! Damn so far I have had 1 that I got a response from where the at the time (and 2nd time) of an arrange phone interview the person never phoned. Kind of worried I am doing this all wrong on how to apply properly.

First of all you need to learn to spell reference. I'm serious, if you make mistakes like that on your application it will seriously undermine you.
Then you need to recognise that it's part of academics' jobs to write references, so pester away. You MUST use the form the University gives you, otherwise it looks like you can't read. Most referees will make minor modifications to the initial reference they do for you, in order to fit the bill - so it's not likely to be THAT much work for them.
More than one person must have marked your work at undergrad/MSc. They don't want someone who knows what size underwear you take, just someone who can comment on your work.

I agree with pamplemousse, using the forms the university you are applying to is essential as they want to see that you are making the effort for their application and ignoring the forms they supply will not make a good impression at all. In fact they could reject your application outright as you have failed to completed it correctly (this would be harsh, but if there is a lot of applications they might just bin the ones that aren't completed properly).

I know it is a real pain having to print the forms out, take them to your referees, wait for them to be completed and then include them in the application, especially when there is a research proposal to do/ interview to prepare for as well, but the is no way around it.

Just remember that it is the same for everyone and if you are serious about getting accepted for a PhD then it is something that has to be done.

Dukes, universities don't have time to sift through CVs and then decide if to request references. You'll find this the case with some academic jobs too now - they'll request an application and references all before short-listing. This can be a pain because you're constantly pestering people for a references, but as said below, it's part of an academics job to provide references and they rarely refuse to do so.

If you are unsure that one of your referees don't remember you, then don't worry! Academics write hundreds of references for tutees they have only met on a handful of occasions. But make their life easy by supplying them with an up-to-date CV and lots of information about the job.

If I may hijack this thread I have a sort of similar position but I think I am even more stuck. I currently work and providing solely academic references is not only difficult since I am no longer in the same city as potential referees but also hardly seems terribly representative considering the amount of time I spent with and amount of work I did for them versus that spent with and done for my employers. I really don't want to rock the boat unnecessarily by asking my employers for references, especially if it doesn't amount to anything. I have tried explaining this on applications but it has nearly always caused problems. Is this really so unreasonable to ask that referees not be contacted until a later stage? It's always been an option I have been offered when applying for jobs and my current supervisor also thinks this a bit harsh. Is there any way round it?

As Missspacey says, there are so many applications for so few PhD places, whether funded or otherwise, that you have to follow the protocol. Most academic departments will be more interested in academic than professional references. I can't really get my head around peoples' problem with this. My other half recently got a PhD place after 5 years out of academia and used his supervisor from his MA for one, and a lecturer from his BA as another, despite that being in the very distant past....

As Missspacey says, there are so many applications for so few PhD places, whether funded or otherwise, that you have to follow the protocol. Most academic departments will be more interested in academic than professional references. I can't really get my head around peoples' problem with this. My other half recently got a PhD place after 5 years out of academia and used his supervisor from his MA for one, and a lecturer from his BA as another, despite that being in the very distant past....

I said I was in employment - not out of academia. I work in a research institute and hence why I think my current employers have over a year to observe my laboratory/interpersonal skills as opposed to my academic referees having only six-ish weeks (final year project supervisor) and virtually no interaction with me in a practical environment (so-called 'personal' tutor). My contract does not run out for quite some time so I don't see the point in making my bosses think I am leaving suddenly unless I really do have something solid to go to. It sounds as if neither you nor your partner have been in this situation, so perhaps that is why you "can't really get your head around" the slightly awkward situation I am in.

Bucket... most people on here will take 'job' to mean 'non academic position' unless they're talking about things in a postdoctoral context.
I think most doctoral applications are heavily dependent upon references, therefore they're not going to want to wait for them and a decision in advance of one of them is often not going to be tenable.

Mmmmm, sorry Bucket, Pamplemousse is right, when people here use the word 'job' it tends to mean non-academic; although you were perhaps unaware of this. In any case, unfortunately it *is* unreasonable in an academic context to ask them to contact referees later, as people have said they use references to sift out people at the very earliest stages. Once again academia is out-of-step with 'the real world', but that is something that we all deal with on a daily basis!

My apologies for not being clearer earlier on; I think I take for granted the terminology I use at work, where everyone refers to their role as work/their job, including students. Surprisingly, some places have been okay about deferring references, some less so; maybe things have changed since my supervisor did her PhD?! Don't think I need be reminded about how awkward academia can be...!
Thanks for all the help and advice, guys!

It gets even more annoying - after I was offered the studentship I had to apply for an academic place. The University (even though my studentship is a University one) wanted references. When I forwarded the ones sent for the studentship place this was not good enough. I was sent a fresh set of reference forms (exactly the same forms as for the studentship) to get filled in again by my three referees to send back to the same University.

You get used to it.

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