Hi everyone,

It´s been a year since I finished my master´s (outside the UK) and now am working as a psychologist. Right after finishing my degree I started applying for a PhD on universities in UK. During the last year I applied for nearly 20 PhD positions, but I was always rejected. I developed proposals for two my own PhD projects (on the first one I got offered a place but not the scholarship, so I had to reject it. The second proposal was reject, I wasn´t even invited for an interview.). The rest of the proposals were funded positions for specific projects (which match my research interests), so I had to only create a short proposal for selected topic or write only a covering letter. I start being desperate, because being a researcher was always my dream, however I start to doubt myself, that maybe I am not suitable for PhD (I don´t have any research experience, I didn´t study in UK, maybe my grades are not good enough,...). I tried to apply also for research assistant positions, but also was rejected several times. What am I doing wrong? Do you think I should give it up and focus on something else?

Thank you.

M.

hi, you have a job now as psychologies, wow I think that's excellent. One of our Forum members recently posted a link on an article about PhD over-production, and it is summarised in a blog here.

Research is really difficult (in my opinion) sometimes it is not as exciting as it may seem.

If it is your dream to do research, I guess you should go for it, otherwise you will always think ..."what if..."

However, I still think that developing your career as a psychologist would also be beneficial for you, it could even be better going from NOW than to go and do a phd, and then see what happens from there. The problem with phd for me is that its almost impossible to get a job, to survive etc. Cheap labour, poor working conditions, I was one of them too, my goodness I AM STILL one of them. Now I am at the mercy of funding, when a project ends, so will I.

I got some advice from a research bigwig, he explained things like why the same people get grants etc. and why it is difficult for someone like me (early post-phd) to really get a break in the area of FUNDING etc. It will take a long time and lots of hard work and perhaps a bit of luck for someone like me to be able to win a bid. I also don't know if I've got what it takes to be in this kind of "academic/research war-field"! I am just not aggressive enough.

What I would suggest to you to do, is to take some time off applying.

Sometimes it is difficult to appreciate what we already have in our life.

Take a break, just continue your present job first, relax, and then see how you feel after some time. If the urge to want to go into research is still there, then maybe it is what you should do.

best of luck
love satchi

I have spent the past 2 years trying to get a PhD position, so I know the frustration very well. I have sent out more than 50 applications - actually, I've lost count...I stopped numbering them after 50.

I too have an M.Sc. from a non-EU university. That is probably a huge disadvantage. But on university websites, I see lots of international students, including those who haven't studied in the EU, and I wonder what the hell I am doing wrong. I have no idea what is going on...
You are lucky you have a job. I have the same luck with employment. All rejections.

I have thought many times to quit trying for PhD, but teaching and research is what I love to do. I really don't care much about the salary as long as it is enough to live. What I like is the challenge of understanding and coming up with easy ways to put difficult ideas into people's head; and sharing something immensely beautiful and amazing about the world around us.
If you can put PhD aside and continue with your job and gain satisfaction out of it, then its great and wonderful, and it is something that you should do.
But, if you feel that it is your calling in life (as I do) - then at the end of the day, you don't really have a choice. You HAVE to keep trying.

Well, at one point you also have to be realistic and may have to abandon dreams. Even if you get a Phd position at some point, your chances to do research or teach afterwards are almost non existent. The competition is just too high to make it with major gaps in your CV and you also have to consider that there is a reason why you got rejected so many times. It is maybe just not meant to be. I don't want to discourage people but you have to think about what will come afterwards and if you already struggle to get a Phd position, I hardly see a chance how you should get a permanent position as a lecturer afterwards. This is just unrealistic. You should also consider that life is not just about work and your job. There are probably other things that are important to you and almost everything demands a certain amount of money, no matter if we talk about kids, traveling, hobbys etc.
Find a compromise between a job you love and one that gives a realistic chance to make a living. But that's just my opinion on this.

For the OP :
I think you have not so much to lose. You already have a job so just keep on trying. If you get a position and can't make it in research after the completion of a hypothetical Phd position, you can probably always start a private practice. Just make sure that there is a backup plan if research does not work out.

Don't feel bad Lude. They are all funded by their governments, employers or parents. Most of them are not exceptional students (at least the ones I know, obviously).

That is not true. I've got a 5 year science 'gap' in my CV and it's done me no harm. In fact, working in that job transformed my personality and it's what helped me do so well in my PhD... and beyond, in my new research position.

Agreed - the international students at my university pay huge fees. They are probably not at all representative of students in their home countries, they just have access to funding. It is a very frustrating system in which good applicants can get overlooked time and time again.

I don't mean this in any way offensive but let's see when it comes to applications for permanent positions in academia ;) It may not be harmful for temporary phd and post doc jobs but if it comes to PI/assistant professor/ associate professor etc. and leading your own group then you are facing competition that is far beyond the one you have for phd or post doc positions with applicants from all over the world and usually really strong CVs. Then you either have connections or a truly impressive publication list, which is, let's be honest, something that you can only influence to a certain degree.
Of course it is your own decision but after 2 years of struggle for a phd position it is just reasonable to advice someone to search for alternatives and not to further encourage them to a point when there is no turning back.

Yes and I intend to be competitive and I guarantee you my previous management position works for me and not against me and will continue to do so.

[/quote] Then you either have connections or a truly impressive publication list, which is, let's be honest, something that you can only influence to a certain degree [/quote]

Yes but working prior to starting a PhD doesn't prohibit this.

[/quote]Of course it is your own decision but after 2 years of struggle for a phd position it is just reasonable to advice someone to search for alternatives and not to further encourage them to a point when there is no turning back.[/quote]

Possibly, but discouraging people when they want to do something and we have no evidence whether they are are capable or not isn't useful either.

He/She is not working. "No luck with phd or employment". This is simply a gap and not the decision to achieve a Phd after working in this field for a while.

I appreciate this encouraging, all-time positive mood in this forum, but in cases like this it is just irresponsible. How long shall he/she continue trying? 1, 2, 5 years? And what if it never works out ? Who hires you 5 years after graduation without relevant work experience? Even it is somehow sad if people give up on their dreams, sometimes it is just not meant to be and at some point one should look for better alternatives.

I agree with Dunham that general blandishments are not a good thing. Unfortunately, lots of people don't achieve their dreams, but I also think these decisions are down to the individual.

From the little information that someone posts in a public forum, I don't feel I can know enough about their situation to advise them to stop trying. If it was a close friend who was clearly being made miserable by trying, and I could see that it was a lost cause, then maybe. Yes, there are factors that make it more or less likely that someone will be offered a PhD position, but it's not always like that - my own progression to doing a PhD wasn't linear and my CV has gaps/many years of non-academic work on it, so I'm not going to tell anyone else that it can't be done. In my case, doing a (UK-based, distance learning) Masters with a huge research component opened the door straight away to a PhD place, after all previous attempts had failed (despite me already technically having the necessary skills and qualifications).

But you know enough about their situation to encourage them? I think this is basically the same situation. The important point is that we are not talking about a job but about a temporary Phd position. Even if he gets a random Phd position after another year, where will it lead to? Of course nobody knows for sure, but the chances that you end up unemployed or badly paid in a job completely out of your field are extremely high. For me, that is enough to give someone the advice above. One post doc in a lab I did an internship in got advised by the supervisors to better look for positions in industry because his publication record was (in their opinion) to weak to have a real chance in academia. Of course they could not know that for sure. Nobody can. Of course they did not like that because he wanted to be a PI some day but things like that are just honest. If you still want to try you have the possibility but I would feel bad to encourage people in situations like that, just to be positive. It is always easy to encourage anonymous people in a forum but imagine it is a friend or a family member. Would you really encourage them even though you know about the odds?

I attempt to give information from my own experiences and from hearing other people's, rather than specifically encouraging/discouraging. If someone wants to go on trying and accepts the situation as it is, it's not my job to stop them. I think it's possible to get caught up in a very narrow definition of what a PhD is, and to see it simply as a road straight into competitive academia, which as you say is riddled with problems such as lack of jobs, but some of us want to do the PhD anyway, for our own reasons. I don't know what the future holds but I know I am glad I took the chance to do a PhD, for many reasons and whatever happens next. Yes, I would encourage a family member who felt the same.

Dunham, I completely understand your point of view. I referred to specifically that in my first post. If the OP can put PhD aside and continue his/her job and find the satisfaction he/she needs in it, then its great, and he/she can consider dropping the idea of PhD. After all, not everyone does a PhD, and people do live happily without it.

The other alternative is just a different viewpoint that I arrived at, and which I think might be shared by other people. Two years, or even one year, of just sitting around is a very long time for introspection and figuring out what matters to you. Is just getting a job that you cannot feel satisfied in, and only earning money and gaining experience really worth it at the end of the day? Or, would I be satisfied enough in life with a job, but without having gone through the challenge of a PhD? I only know that for me (and possibly, people like me), the answer is that any job which I do manage to land (and I am trying hard! lol), would only be a temporary fix until I get a chance to do PhD.
But, for the OP this is a big question he/she must decide.

I think its down to what Chickpea hinted at - why do you want to do it?