======= Date Modified 23 11 2010 20:11:30 =======
Hi all, I have been using 'which' for singular and 'that' for plural, for example: 'houses that have a tree in a garden which is green are vey nice indeed', since I read that's the way to do it in a grammar book last year, however, I just started doing the freerice thing on the grammar option, and they have a different rule. This other rule seems to be that 'which' is for a non-essential clauses, while 'that' is for essential ones, for example: 'A tree that fell on my head lost a few branches, which were quite leafy'.

I have found a few websites, but they seem to say different things - what do you think?

I always used to think that 'which' is for people i.e. those participants which...

and 'that' is for things e.g. trees that fall on peoples heads.....


But then I'm not so sure any more, after a few wiggly lines in word 2007 :-( I just go for whatever sounds right :$

I'm not sure if what you found means the same thing, but I always use "which" after a comma and "that" the rest of the time.

I'm with Slizor - it's more to do with the relationship between the ideas. 'Which' generally does follow a comma in this sense, which begins a new clause (see what I did there? ;-)) The general rule I use is that if you read the sentence out loud and you feel there should be a pause before the 'which' or 'that', then it should be 'which', cos chances are it's a new clause. If you don't pause, then it's 'that'...

Sneaks - in your example, I'd use 'who'.... but that's another one that's open to interpretation...

PS - first post here - hi everyone 8-) Crumbs, first post and I'm going to get a reputation as a grammar nazi.....

thanks folks, that's useful - I think I may have been careful using a non-rule for the last year!

Is that the famous Maggie May of Lime Street?

These are all relative clauses, and there are two types.

Defining (essential) relative clauses define or identify what you're talking about. They don't have a comma, and you can use 'who' or 'that' for people and 'which' or 'that' for things. (you can also omit the pronoun altogether if it's the object of the sentence)

e.g. That's the lady who I was talking about; that's the lady that I was talking about; that's the lady I was talking about.

Non-defining (non-essential) relative clauses give extra information (ie do not identify what you are talking about). They usually have a comma, are usually only used in written English, and you shouldn't usually use 'that', and you can't omit the pronoun.

e.g. London, which is in the south East of England, is the nation's capital city. Not '...that is in the south of ....'
The Queen, who lives in Buckingham Palace, is a bit posh.

I am interesting really :)

If you're going to have a user name, you might as well have a memorable one
:-)

Hi Eska! I always struggle with this one. I googled it a while ago and got hold of some document that says you use 'which' if it is simply giving more detail, but 'that' if it actually narrows down or restricts what the object or point of the sentence is. I don't think it's to do with singular or plural, just to do with whether it's an additional detail, or one that actually narrows down what you are saying by giving more essential information. To be honest, I just tend to use the one that 'sounds right' and my supervisor rarely corrects me! Best, KB

You ARE interesting! I love a bit of good grammar :-)

Eska, 'which' and 'that' can be used for singular and plural, and Barnaby's post is on the money. Compare "the house that has a chimney on the roof is very nice" and "the house, which has a chimney on the roof, is very nice". The two examples do not mean exactly the same thing; the first uses a relative clause to identify the house, whereas the latter uses a clause to provide extra information about the house. You can usually hear this difference when saying the examples out loud. But don't worry too much about it - just refrain from "the house what has a chimney on the roof..." - my ears bleed a little whenever I hear it (how's that for grammar Nazi?!) ;-)

P.S. Whenever I'm being a grammar Nazi, I always make the silliest errors. Please feel free to ignore any such mistakes :p