There is some argument that loyalty cards have more nefarious objectives than the obvious.

Direct marketing is hardly the devil's own work - we can choose to take it or leave it. I'm personally glad that their database can save me money, time and energy and I HAVEN'T got anything to hide (other than a penchant for organic spuds and chocolate).

Conspiracy theories do amuse me though - maybe I'm naive, but there's probably not many more than a handful of (in-the-know) people to whom all that really matters. Maybe ignorance is bliss...?

I completly get your point Otto, in no other country I know of it is possible to use a utility bill as a proof of identity; which makes everyone really scared of identity fraught BUT nobody does anything against it e.g. the debate about ID cards and how easy they are to fake???? sorry, I do not get this an utility bill is ok but nit an ID card. On the other hand nobody minds to get watched the whole time, give all their data to Sainsburys, TESCOS etc BUT make a big fuss about apparent bugs on the bins spying out the rubbish.
Hoever, before anybody says I shall leave if I don't like it: I do like it here otherwise I would not be here

Yes, just a final statement from me:

The customer has no obligation to give out their personal data, no matter what they try to tell you. If you come to a hotel and don't want to pay with a credit card and you got, for example, £100 (£50 for the room and £50 for security) then, in this country, they will probably not give you the room. but they have no right to do so.
If you go to IKEA to buy a light bulb and they ask you for your post code at the check out, just see what happens if you don't give it out. They will make a big fuss and the queue behind you will become really angry at YOU. this is weird.

They try to manipulate our minds. We have rights and our privacy needs to be protected!

Similarly, if you go to PC WORLD to buy a brandnew PC for, let's say £400, they will take you to a desk to ask for your address, date of birth and so on. Then they will try to sell you an insurance. I said: NO, I don't need an insurance and I will not give you my personal details. Here is the money, all I want to do is to buy this PC. This resulted in a big argument and I was asked to leave the shop!!! (without the purchase).

There are many more examples. I see this as a very negative development.

I know what you mean regarding places wanting your address and postcode when you are buying something simple.. I get round it by making a postcode and address up. If they do a search and can't find it I just tell them its a new housing development and so their database must be out of date.. at that point they usually leave it..

Tricky - you ARE tricky!

Though is it not within the shops/hotels rights to ask that? If you dont want to answer, they lose the buisness! However, it is not inherently wrong that they ask (or legally).

Its a bit like going to a restuarant and the chef refuses to cook for you. It is a private buisness so in theroy the chef can do what he wants. He could demand that you stand in the middle of the room and sing and dance for everyone before he will cook, or whatever else he may deem he wants. Of course if you want to eat you have to do it. If not then you dont and you go somewhere else to eat. Only by taking buisness elsewhere can you stop this sort of thing.

Anyway, I fail to see what the state can do to us with all this info. I would expect that if they really wanted to they could get all the info anyway (usually all personal data is held by some govenment body). It just makes it all a lot faster (fewer legal processes to go through).

"usually all personal data is held by some government body"

Really? That's the problem isn't it. In a democracy there is no need for the government to spy on your consumer behaviour and other stuff.
Also, the companies have no birthright to get all that personal data. You buy a product and that's it. I take my right to refuse to give them that personal data, if they insist, then they lost a deal.

what is facebook? (am i totally stupid?!)

Its a networking site.. you join networks for your university etc.

If you google it you will get the link

debating whether finding something else to distract me is good... !!!

might have a quick look...

Thats what I was trying to say, they do not have a birthright. However, they can if they wish ask for it and if you refuse to give it then they can refuse to serve you (there is nothing to stop them). My point is that this sort of policy for a private comapany is up to them. The consumer votes whether he likes it by using his feet.

I meant the govenment has a lot of your details. Such as name, address, date of birth, national insurance number etc etc. Most of it is fairly easy to access, for example on the electoral register.

Anyway, my question is what does the govenment do with this data that is so bad? I mean the govenment has always spied on us to some extent, eg the doomsday book. I also dont think being in a democracy has anything to do with this. After all if what you say about the majority of us wanting to live in a big brother nation is true, then surely this is democracy working at its finest.

I'm not so sure about that, Richmond. If a society does not resist measures which harm democracy, then this is not necessarily a democratic act. Rather testimony of ignorance. For example, if citizen and parliament voted for a change in legislation which gives Tony Blair more power, then this would be a step away from democracy.

On the other hand, of course private companies can have their own policies concerning data collection. The only thing I wanted to emphasise is that they create an atmosphere which implies that they DO have a birthright to do so.

The main point I'm trying to raise is: companies collect loads of data, the government is starting to collect loads of data, but what happens with this data? What happens if immoral people get access to this data?

Hmm, but immoral people can get hold of your data if they want with or without it being collected by the govenment. However, I will take your point that it is a worry that this can happen, and of course being able to get hold of such a large quantity of data is a big concern. However, the same can be said for banks etc.

I fail to see how collecting data effects democracy. Knowing what your citzens are up to does not change anything. Trying to interfer with them and stop them doing X or Y, then maybe you have a point. However, im pretty sure anything the govenment wants to 'crack' down on is already under survailence. I can see concern that this data could be used to stop people doing stuff.