I've definitely known this to happen before. I think that is a really good explanation/theory for why what happens happens. It's almost like being different is an offense and can even lose you friends. But I still can't conform! :-D




If this is so, then I hope people on this forum can make a judgement of me based on my posts over the years, and come to the conclusion that even if they don't understand me in my present conundrum, what I'm going through doesn't arise from arrogance. And I'm happy to say that none of my seemingly crazy decisions have ever closed doors for me [quote]

Oh it definitely doesn't come from arrogance I completely agree there. It's almost the opposite if you are being pulled in a direction which is against societal expectations and norms. It feels like there is no viable alternative. It's doesn't feel so much like a choice but an obligation to yourself.

It will be interesting to see how you get on.
ETA: ah the editing capability of this forum is rubbish on an iPad. Good luck following the discussion :-D

Yeah but who's has? We are all just faking it. At least, I hope everyone else is!

Well, one of my peers who recently got offered a postdoc said to me along the lines of: this has been so hard but so worth it; I have learnt just SO much during my PhD.

She found her PhD challenging. Now having done her PhD, she knows a good bit more than she did before. The PhD afforded her development and growth.

Would you say she is the exception rather than the rule?

If it's not for the development and learning, then what is the point?

These aren't rhetorical questions (although I do feel rather incredulous lately).

Hi. I would like to participate in the discussion. Of course not all PhD graduates learn the same. In a score from 1 to 10 some really learn 8 or 9. Some have like 4 journals and 15 conference papers in a three year period, really. But what if you learn 4 or 5? This was not what you have expected and hoped for sure. But it is never too late. You can try to choose a good Postdoc job and try as much to avoid what caused you to learn 5/10. Try to benefit 9/10 this time. it is not the end. It has only 3 years in your long research career and they were good, not perfect but let us look forward.

In my personal experience, I know when I had a bad experience in my job that it was 50% my fault. Now in my current job I try to change my bad habits so I feel I benefit much more.
So if you choose a better environment for Postdoc role and add to what you have already gained, you may have a better experience in your next move.

Thanks Eng, good points :-) I definitely need to choose an environment that suits me better next, whatever my next move is. I suppose what I am worried about is that I have gained so little from my PhD experience that maybe I won't be able to get a good post doc. But then again, thankfully, I have done some good networking and worked with others away from my immediate context, which could open doors. :-)

That's great. Thankfully, I have reflected throughout my PhD and always sought out ways to improve things - usually starting with changing my own behaviour and attitudes. That's something I'm proud of, but at the same time, rather regretful about. Sometimes persevering is good. Other times, it makes much better sense to cut your losses and move on sooner rather than later. But nevermind, you live you learn. :-)

Oh no, I learnt so much during my PhD, I didn't mean that. It's absolutely about development. I learnt about my specific topic of course - I'd say I'm one of world experts in that now, which is the way it should be. I also learnt about publishing, higher education, IT skills... I learnt loads. Not only that, I worked damn hard for it too, and my thesis was the best I could do at the time, so it felt like an achievement.

I meant that we are all impostors in academia. I feel like I know nothing next to professors naturally, but also some students wow me with their intelligence so much that I think 'how the hell did I get here', so that's why I could also say I don't have the confidence to pursue an academic career, but here I am doing it anyway. I think most people think like this. A PhD is just one step in the process. Development is continual.

Ah, yes, I understand about imposter syndrome. That's not what this thread is about. I'm talking about limited scope for development on my PhD. If I could say something like your first paragraph about my PhD, then I'd be a very happy bunny about my PhD. That's kinda the point - the thing I've been trying to explain since the start of this thread. Lack of development, lack of learning.

I'm beginning to feel a little like my account of my PhD experience (which surely I know best) is being undermined a bit.

It is about doing original research that adds to humanity's knowledge. You can do that without learning a single new skill and be following exactly what your supervisor says. A PhD is effectively a glorified apprenticeship, it is about being able to prove you can do the work. If you can't do/handle the work, you don't deserve a PhD.

I think a PhD is not just about development but is also a stamp of approval that says you can produce a certain quality of work. Don't do good work, don't get a PhD. Don't learn anything but still do good work, you get a PhD. I admit that the academic development is wonderful when/if it happens but you don't get assessed on that. People hire PhD holders because they have a certificate that says they can do good work. They get given "academic freedom" because they could produce "good work" allegedly independently. You are assessed by results not by growing as a person.

Seriously, if you don't value a PhD and value the personal development/ good working environment. Quit. We are the makers of our own happiness. But you will need to be utterly phenomenal to get a second chance in academia again.

Hmm, interesting take - thanks! In the space of the seven days since I started considering my options in this way, I've already spoken to another person who submitted for an mphil in her final year and then undertook another PhD. By her account, it wasn't about being utterly phenomenal. It was about knowing what she wanted to get from her PhD, and some good networking. There must be more of them out there!

I like how you describe it as a glorified apprenticeship. An apprenticeship in research is exactly how I view it, and that view informs what I expect to get out of it.

Ps. What you've put in the second paragraph kind of concurs with what my mentor in the States said to me when I said I hadn't been developing much and it was depressing. That is the one thing that is making me think: just submit as planned, and get this behind you, so you can move on to the next thing.

Are you sure it's not all tied up in the same thing? May you have developed but just don't feel like you have when comparing yourself to others?

If I'm entirely honest, I think my confidence has been affected by the fact that it hasn't been great, which probably DOES make me think it has been "even worse" than it has been / I've developed "even less" than I have in reality. If that makes sense.

I think there IS a genuine issue (there really has been little scope for development), but this is compounded / amplified because I am the way I am (I know what I want from a given thing - from a PhD - and I have high expectations).

I guess the bottom line is: I could accept that it was a very poor experience, be proud of what I DID manage to get out of it, and move on fingers crossed to better things...

Thank you for helping me get more of a balanced view of things. One idea is to get going on tying the thesis together and seeing how I feel about it then. There is definitely enough work/data to merit a PhD, so maybe that is the logical thing to do - WHATEVER I feel about how the process has been.

I dont know if you are saying this to be self deprecating but I can honestly say that this description of "just faking" it doesnt cover my experience at all. I undertook my PhD because it represents the pinnacle of academic achievement. I had no real imtention of using it to get an academic job. If I had come through the entire process without having done anything which made me feel I had earned it I would have considered the entire thing a complete waste of 3 years of my life, It was never about getting the certificate. It was always about the process itself.